Problems Playing with a Band

Kevin Chriss · From: Carmel, IN, USA

I never see anyone else complaining about this on the forum, is it just my inexperience? Here's a problem I've had playing with every band I've been in.
I feel a big part of the voicing of a steel guitar is using volume and if the bands volume level is already at 8, almost all of the steels dynamics is not going to be heard. Most band leaders will say I'm not playing agressive enough. I say the steel guitar is not an agressive instrument, especially with my playing style. My beef is mainly with lead guitar players. They have to make a special effort when playing with steel guitars to stop playing or at least volume down. I think most of them feel that if you don't just jump in and ride over the top of them then it's your problem. I think it takes a special band to play with a steel guitar and none of them want to make the extra effort anymore. Do you guys feel my pain or am I just being a wimp.

Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

This is an issue that should be a serious consideration during practice. It is helpful to record your material during practice, and listen to it. This allows you to be critical of your arrangements, and fine tune them before you perform on stage. I have had similar problems over the years, and the recordings help to resolve some of these issues. To be a good tight band, everyone needs to agree on a “sound”, and work to perfect it.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

My impression is that you are in a crappy band. It happens all the time. My personal solution is to put up with it and practice more. That way I become a better player and am able to quit the crappy bands when I get hired by the good bands. I try not to complain because its basicly hopeless. Buy yourself some real earmolds from an audioligist and fish around for subs to cover for you as you gracefully make your way out of the mud and into the enjoyable, lucrative world of musicians that don't suck.

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Bob
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Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

Kevin, part of your complaint hits the nail on the head and it does focus on the lead guitar player. They are some guitar players that are extremely hard to work with, they want to play all the time and its not just steel guitar, they have a hard time playing with any other lead instrument. This is usually the result of a guitar player having played with a trio for years where they had to play all the time and just can't learn how to play with another lead instrument. So I can very well understand what your talking about. The guitar player needs to volume down and play rhythm when your playing your fill or ride, hang in there man.

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Fred Justice,
Fred's Music www.fredjusticemusic.com
Rains Steel Guitars

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Hi Kevin, no you are "NOT" a wimp.It does however take a special "lead" guitarist who can work with a steel player.A guitarist who knows how to "share" the solos, and lay out as you do too yourself. Just play when you are needed....and that applies to Keyboards, banjo players and fiddles if they are in the line up. Re volume on stage,shouldn't be any problem if you're miced up into the P.A. Most bands do it all gigs these days, not so much for volume, but for clarity.

Micky Byrne. www,mickybyrne.com

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Sorry Kevin....website is www.mickybyrne.com

Jack Francis · From: Queen Creek, Arizona, USA

Fred hit the nail on the head, most of the guitar players that I have had a problem with, just don't no when to lay out...It's about the music not how many licks the can dazzle with.

I play a lot of guitar also and the problem is there with both instruments...once about half way thru the first set I got up off the steel and picked up my guitar. The lead player came up to me on the break and asked why I got off the steel. I told him that we didn't need 2 steel players and with him playing steel licks with his bender
we were beatin that sound to death...he got the idea and we were fine after that.

A little communication usually works,,or a change is in order.

Alan Cook · From: Kent,England

Kevin the advice above is good, but you should try some simple arrangements before you start to play the song e.g.lets split the solo, you do the intro and I will do the ending, I will do the verse fills and you do the solo the list is endless, write the arrangement down on you set list or chord chart and if they don't do it next time you play the song remind them of the mistake. Play to together try some high end harmonics over the guitarists lead lines and get him/her to add some clean through chords while you solo. Listen to other arrangements that have been recorded by good bands and learn from or even copy the arrangement (if you like how it works). There are lots of tricks that you can use. Don't give up on the band work with them well arranged material can make a bad band, good, it just needs a little control remember, less is often more. Last but not least if you don't mike or DI your amp you will not be heard out front no matter how small the gig is. Keep at it.
Alan www.alancook.net

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

It's not just guitar players, it can be anyone in the band , including Steel players.

Kevin, you didn't say how old you are or the approx age of the bandmates, not that it really matters.

If they are older players and are still into the I MUST PLAY LOUD all the time thing, then you really just need to move on as there may be no hope for them.

IF they are younger and you enjoy the band and there company..just tell them like it is...

Volume technique is something that musicians learn and quite frankly, some learn it well..others sadly refuse to learn it at all.

In your scenario it is apparant the the Lead Guitar is an out of control ego case...

Ask him if he ever plans on "Lifting" while you play the Steel parts...

Quality Musicians don't have to be told about this..they just do it...

You obvioulsy understand this..

Others in your Band may not even care about it...

I have sat in with bands where the playing and over playing was so obnoxious that what I did was to just sit back and basically do nothing. A band leader who hired me one time asked me why I wasn't playing much..I just gently stated that I felt I was stepping on the Guitar players toes ! The next set the Guitar player started giving me ALL the solo's..which was wrong as well..we finally reached a happy medium.

Ya gotta speak up...

good luck

t

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

Brian Herder · From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA

I'd have to agree with Bob H on this one. I also think that guitar players get a bad rap alot of the time, when it's the whole band (or more than one part) that is stinking up the joint. It's been my experience that a bad groove can really compound the problem, making the volume issue that much more apparent.

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

If the lead players in the band don't have a agreement of who's gonna do the intro and who's gonna do each part of the backup on the song before you start the song,then you're going to have to put up with the lead players all trying to play at the same time. If you chart the songs you shouldn't have this problem. But we know that there are lead players that consistantly play too loud. That can be corrected real quick. If you can't get him leveled out in the mix (Get rid of him because every chance he gets he will be blowing your ears off. A lot of times it's the drums and bass that starts out too loud. If that is the case,the whole band is gonna be too loud all nite. And one of the biggest culprits of playing too loud is drinking while playing the job. three or four drinks and you can't hear near as good so you keep turning up and tuning up too.

[This message was edited by Buck Grantham on 29 March 2006 at 08:23 AM.]

Jon Jaffe · From: Austin, Texas

Turn your amp up to 11, step on the volume pedal and play like you are the most important sound on stage. When the band leader says aggressive, he means turn it up. Forget about the guitar player. He will back off.

All of the discussions are nice, but they asked you to be in the band, so play.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

All too often lead guitarists feel its their God given right to hog every fill and ride, and any steel player who wants to play anything is "the enemy." We've all seen it.

The last gig I played had a lead guitarist who really understood how to interact with a steel. It was a real pleasure to work with him, and I told him so.

There used to be a 6 piece band around here with 4 lead players. Lead guitar, fiddle and mandolin, steel, banjo and sax, and keyboards, as well as bass and drums of course.

They made written outlines of every tune, and assigned each fill amd ride (or part of a ride) to a specific player.

The result was that each song had a variety of different sounds, and nobody stepped on anybody else.

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

I'm with Jon J. on this one!!
I've run into the same thing working with some of the local bands around here. When the leader asked why I wasn't playing much, or said to be more aggressive, well that's where it's at! After completly covering up the guitar player a few times and then explaining to him why, it's worked out just fine, except for one, and since then I've all ways been busy when they call!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think it's only in rock-n-roll that you consistently find the "louder is better" syndrome. In all other forms of music I've played, from folk to bluegrass, and from country to R&B, players know that louder isn't better. In my long but insignificant career in music, I've had the good fortune to play with some really exceptional musicians, and mostly all of them knew when to play, and how loud to play. To me, that's what separates the hackers from the professionals...not what they play, but how they play it!

While it's true that many will tell you that they must play to make money, when you don't enjoy it, it's just not worth it. There's other ways to supplement your income while you woodshed and look for a really good band who will appreciate you, respect you, and play good music too! Face it, most of us started off playing with very non-professional players, but if you don't try eventually to rise above that level of performing, you'll be stuck forever in a quagmire that will sap your enthusiasm, and limit your growth as a musician.

As Bob and Tony both said, there's some good groups out there, but if you're continuously willing to settle for "second best" just to make some money, it's very likely that that's where you'll stay.

TonyL · From: Seattle. WA

Song arrangement, even for rock and roll, has helped in every band situation I've been in.

I played bass for 15+ years before moving to the steel and played with lots of lead players, some loud, some not. Even having a leader pointing to who's going to do the fill/ solo/ head part will really help. Taking some time beforehand to arrange the songs, even better.

T

Tom Taylor · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

This is definitely not your fault. Many musicians never consider dynamics when playing. When it's time for your lead, they should back off. Watch a good bluegrass band. When it's time for one instrument to take a break, they (the accompaniests) should get softer, not the lead get louder.

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OMI Original Hound Dog Dobro,
Remington Playboy 8 String

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

I may be wrong in my opinion, and it's that, JMO, that a "Band" is a group of people who are "all" trying to play reconizable, pleasing to the ear music. When one or more people in this group can't, or won't work with the rest for the good of the music, then to me it's not a band, just some people making noise! And that is Not Fun to be envolved in!! And once again this is just my opinion!

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"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree with Bob Hoffnar on this. This is about dynamics in music - levels that change with time, depending on what is called for the mood of the piece - and adequate space. To me, good music has dynamics and space. A good band, in any style, recognizes this.

How much space and how aggressive is appropriate depends on the style of music, of course. But even very aggressive but good punk bands like The Clash used appropriate dynamics - I never heard them stomp all over the singer or soloist. Aggression can be good, but discipline is needed.

I disagree that this is just about lead guitar players. It's about musicians who don't understand when and how to play in a band, or can't control their egos. I've played with sax, keyboard, guitar, fiddle, mandolin, banjo, and other instrument players who just never knew when to back off. I do understand that a lot of lead guitar players have large egos. That was my primary instrument for a long time, and it does sort of go with the cultural turf. But it is possible to control this.

I also disagree that just cranking up to 11 and blowing them away is always the correct solution. Sometimes, that's what is called for - but other times, this is about power in a band, and that can just make it worse or get you fired. These days, even in country music, lead guitar is what most people out there in radioland seem to want to hear out front. That is part of the problem, IMO.

John Ummel · From: Arlington, WA.

Each instrumentalist in the group has to know what and when to play AND when NOT to play. I've been very fortunate to work with very tasteful guitarists. But I've sure seen keyboard players that don't get it. This thread is full of good advice. But I can't agree with turning up and overpowering the other player who is doing same to you. NOT a solution but just escalating the problem. Play with taste. Eventually you'll find yourself surrounded by like minded players.

Jon Jaffe · From: Austin, Texas

Are you kidding? A band without ego's. It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to overcome performance anxiety. If these guys were so warm and fuzzy and interested in a great sound there would have been some communicating going on. They would be all sittin' out under an oak tree in a circle patiently waiting for the next instrument to chime in.

Instead they are walking all over Kevin. What does the word aggressive conjure up. To me I see a little wolf pack (i.e. the band) and Kevin is not getting to the meat.

I agree that a band should be a harmonious amalgam of intertwined sounds, but I suspect this one isn't. Maybe he does not have his choice of folks to pick with? He does not want to play to his music room walls, so he finds a band.

It is fun to play with other people, and I am sure that at times they are in a groove. Kevin can either intellectualize his place to the other band members or do it with his guitar.

Of course if this is a supper club......never-mind.

John Ummel · From: Arlington, WA.

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Kevin,
Many good points have already been made.
You mention that this is a problem in "every" band you've been in and "most" band leaders suggest playing more aggressively. Obviously, we don't know whether this means 2 or 3 bands, or quite a few more. Perhaps it's as simple as most bands in your area aren't interested in the more subtle music styles that you prefer. I'm not putting a value judgment on any particular musical approach, just an observation. I hope that soon you get to play with a band where everyone is on the same page, and that you have a blast playing what you like. -- Marc

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

In my opinion, as a professional musician you must learn to function within a band in three different modes:
1) Soloing. Alot of people practice this to the exclusion of other things, unfortunately.
2) Playing tasteful backup for vocalists. It takes some practice to phrase in between vocal phrases and not overtop of them.
and;
3) The most elusive - Finding something supportive but unintrusive to play while someone else is soloing or when someone else is backing up the singer. (which also may include playing nothing at all!)

I think Tony is right, it's not just guitarists. Alot of harmonica players are bad at this, and so are alot of keyboardists. Even some steelers. I went into the Carter booth at the Texas show while 4 good steel players were lined up taking turns on tunes. One of the four just didn't "get it", and soloed quietly through everyone else's solo.
If I was Chuck Barris, I would have gonged him !

-John

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[This message was edited by John Steele on 29 March 2006 at 05:09 PM.]

Don Powalka · From: Wisconsin, USA

I think just about every musician has run into this problem at some point. The comment that I agree with the most is that if you hang in there, you'll eventually get to play with higher caliber musicians that aren't on an ego trip. For the time being, I would talk to the guitar player about splitting up leads. There is a chance that he doesn't realise what he is doing. I've run into this too. If that's the case, you will work through the problem and you'll have a much better band to play in. If not, keep practicing and look for a new gig.

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