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Topic: Keyless or key head |
Johnie King
From: Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 12:11 pm
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For the best sound I’m voting a keyhead model will have a better sound hands down! At least the keyless ones I build an the name brand Keyless models I’ve owned. I’m not saying there may be some Keyless models that I have not played that may sound fine.
Looks like I might be wrong according to all the post lots of post defending the Keyless Steels.
Last edited by Johnie King on 5 Feb 2019 12:48 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 12:37 pm
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I have owned 2 major brand keyless pedal steel guitars.. both were lacking compared to keyed guitars in tone.. Hard to explain what was missing, but they didn't have the nuance or complexity to my ears.. Neither one was here long.. they were very small and light compared to keyed steels, but to me, that was the only advantage... bob _________________ I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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K Maul
From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 12:54 pm
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I have a 90s GFI S12. Maybe I don’t have dog ears, maybe I don’t care enough, but I think it sounds great. I also have a 59 Sho~Bud Permanent which sounds beautiful. They both have a lot of character and are very good in different situations. _________________ KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Johnie King
From: Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 1:41 pm
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Well Sho Bud tried Keyless years ago an the Pros just didn’t accept them then an very few do know. Same with 6 string guitar an bass very rare to see a pro guitar man playing Headless guitar. |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 1:55 pm
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Years ago there was someone making a keyless head to put on a Sho~Bud guitar.
I bought one and put it on a Sho~Bud I had.
I agree with some of the above comments, it lost something in the tone department.
Erv |
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David Ball
From: North Carolina High Country
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 2:18 pm
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I've had 2 keyless Sierras as well as a keyed and a keyless Excel (and some Buds, Emmons, etc...) Hands down, the best sounding guitar I've ever had is my Jackson Pro IV keyed guitar. It's like a super Sho Bud, and that's still my favorite steel tone.
But the Keyless Excel sounds a lot better than my keyed Excel did--its a great sounding guitar. So in this case, keyless won.
The biggest differences I've heard between the guitars I've had seem to come down to scale length and whether the guitar has a wooden body, like most keyed guitars I've had, or a mostly metal body like the Sierras and Excels.
I've come to prefer keyless guitars overall, but mainly because of the long scale length and compactness.
Dave |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 5:12 pm
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Most all the top pros use keyed guitars, and that's a good enough recommendation for me. I figure they probably hear things I don't, and know some things I haven't thought of. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From: Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 6:00 pm
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My Excel Keyless sounds as good as any guitar I've ever played. It has excellent harmonics and sustain. My ears are not what they used to be and your mileage will pry differ. I think the combination of compactness, tone, precision tuning, light weight and cool factor make a keyless as good a choice as a keyed guitar. I do think the keyed guitars look more like a real guitar to the general public on stage and perhaps make a flashier presentation. |
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Len Amaral
From: Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 7:39 pm
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My New Sierra has a wonderful vibe and a pleasure to play. My Williams keyless is a different vibe but unique in its own way. |
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K Maul
From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 9:02 pm
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Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
keyed guitars look more like a real guitar to the general public on stage and perhaps make a flashier presentation. |
Yeah, the same “public†that thinks you are playing a keyboard, a Moog sythesizer or a dulcimer. Haha _________________ KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Mitch Ellis
From: Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2019 10:56 pm
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Yeah, the same “public†that thinks you are playing a keyboard, a Moog sythesizer or a dulcimer. Haha[/quote]
A lady came up to me one night and said "I love the sound of that machine you're playing!" Which, when you think about it, is actually a reasonable description.
Mitch |
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 12:09 am
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...especially if they see underneath while you're packing away - that can cause genuine amazement.
I echo what Greg says about the Excel keyless, and if a keyed Williams sounds better than my keyless one I don't care - lightness and compactness are everything to me.
One thing does puzzle me, though. Both the manufacturers I mention still have rollers and a small but yet real amount of spare string on the other side. My design (see left unless I've changed my picture since I wrote this) is rollerless, like a miniature pull-release changer. It is really simple to make and works perfectly. _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Stu Schulman
From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 12:47 am
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I have never played a keyless guitar but as soon as I sell my Carter ,and GFI Ultra I'm gonna get a keyless guitar and see what I've been missing...I'm looking forward to getting one. _________________ Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Norbert Dengler
From: germany
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 3:38 am
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I really doubt that a keyed guitar sounds better. rather the opposite I m h o. I think pros play keyed because it has advantages on stage situations where you can tune the traditional keyhead without using a tool. on the other hand keyless are even more staying in tune and don't need to be adjusted all the time. |
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Norbert Dengler
From: germany
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 3:40 am
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I really doubt that a keyed guitar sounds better. rather the opposite I m h o. I think pros play keyed because it has advantages on stage situations where you can tune the traditional keypad without using a tool. on the other hand keyless are even more staying in tune and don't need to be adjusted all the time. |
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 3:55 am
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It is the imperfections in a musical instrument that give it its character, as long as they're not severe.
If you like what the spare bits of string in a well-built keyhead do to the sound, enjoy! _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 7:42 am
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When I was a kid, if we wanted chicken for Sunday dinner we had to cut the head off a rooster.
And that's what a keyless guitar reminds me of: a chicken without a head.
Erv |
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Ross Shafer
From: Petaluma, California
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 9:09 am
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Does that mean keyhead steels look like chickens with heads?
Last edited by Ross Shafer on 1 Feb 2019 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From: Louisville Ky
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 9:11 am
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To each his own, but I think the biggest reason players don't like keyless is visual. You can come up with all kinds of reasons to dismiss them, but most of those have little to do with the sound.
Concerning keyless brands of standard guitars, Steinberger only sold thousands and thousands of headless guitars and basses.
Far as professional players who play/played keyless guitars, Jeff Newman played Klines, probably other makes. Joe Wright still plays a keyless Sierra far as I know. Looks like Ross' new line of Sierras, like b0b plays, is gaining ground too. Probably other pros playing those too.
In the 90's, lots of pros played their, at that time, new Sierra keyless 25 guitars. Ron Elliott, Herby Wallace, Gene O'neal. Buddy Emmons played a keyless Sierra on the Church Street Stations TV shows. He also stated that guitar's sound on the C6 neck was his preference over other brands. There are also other examples that don't come to mind right now.
In my own experience, I can play either happily and just don't see the sonic difference, but I guess some players have the ears of a bat.
I have owned Williams, Lamar and Sierra keyless 14's, 12's and D10's.
At one time, I owned a keyless Sierra 14 Crown 25 and a Remington aluminum neck keyed 12 both tuned the same. I made a tape recording of ea. using the same equipment, same tunes etc. as sort of an A/B comparison. Months later, I couldn't identify which is which. I still have the tape here somewhere and I still can't tell.
It would be interesting to see if anyone here could tell the difference in a blind test as well. Perhaps someone who has both a keyed and keyless Williams of the same configuration might be the most honest test. Even then, any differences might be contributed to differences in the individual guitars rather than keyhead design.
You ought to play whatever you like. Some keyless guitars are less roomy than keyed guitars and might have pedals and/or knees with less space than they like.
I submit though, that most players dislike keyless guitars due to the look and to only a perceived difference in the sonic qualities and who cares what the general public or other musicians think.
Many of this group active here, boomers, eschew any differences with modern steel guitars, even more modern pulls and changes.
Perhaps Millennials might give more love to the keyhead challenged models.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions and free to play whatever design they like. That's the important thing. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From: Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 10:14 am
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How could anyone not love these? Keep in mind that the Excel has 12 strings, two unique extended 12 string tunings and the equivalent of 8 pedals and 10 knee levers:
Check out the difference in case sizes:
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Johnie King
From: Tennessee, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 11:15 am
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Greg those are beautiful steels.
Well Tom Brumbly sure made his Keyless Steel work for him an Zane Beck also played Keyless for years. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From: Louisville Ky
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 11:57 am
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Yep. I'm sure there are many others. Cowboy Eddie Long ain't no slouch on his keyless BMI either. |
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Hugo Knef
From: Vallejo , California
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 12:05 pm
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I sure love my keyless Williams when it comes time to change strings. And keyless also has a perfect straight pull on the string after the roller. Something you don’t always get with keyed. _________________ Williams S10 moyo mini Quilter TT12 |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 1:07 pm
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Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
You ought to play whatever you like. Some keyless guitars are less roomy than keyed guitars and might have pedals and/or knees with less space than they like.
I submit though, that most players dislike keyless guitars due to the look and to only a perceived difference in the sonic qualities and who cares what the general public or other musicians think.
Many of this group active here, boomers, eschew any differences with modern steel guitars, even more modern pulls and changes.
Perhaps Millennials might give more love to the keyhead challenged models.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions and free to play whatever design they like. That's the important thing. |
I do think that some millennials use them because they're not traditional, and this is the same thing that made the Steinberger guitars more appealing to a certain segment. Young people are always more into rebelling, for some reason or other. Some people just look for a way to be different and get noticed, whether it's tattoos, spikey or odd colored hair, weird clothing, or headless guitars.
I say play whatever you like. I'll remember you for your playing, and not for what you're playing. I know Paul plays a Franklin, but I honestly couldn't tell you what anyone else is playing now, and I don't really give a damn. For 99.99% of us, the guitar isn't as much a limiting factor as the player behind it. |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 1:11 pm
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Norbert Dengler wrote: |
I really doubt that a keyed guitar sounds better. rather the opposite I m h o. I think pros play keyed because it has advantages on stage situations where you can tune the traditional keyhead without using a tool. on the other hand keyless are even more staying in tune and don't need to be adjusted all the time. |
Meh.. the 2 keyless guitars i had are both still being built, so i won't mention brands, but neither was all that great at staying in tune, and to be honest, they didn't sound good to me either... bob _________________ I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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