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Topic: Sperzel Direct Replacements? |
Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Nov 2018 8:38 am |
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Will the new Sperzel tuners replace the early 80's Sperzel tuners on my 82 Zum without modification of the key head?
I see that all Sperzel tuners are 12:1 ratio, but I'd prefer at least 16:1. The old Sperzel tuners on my 82 Zum have been giving me problems for several years. Too quick of gear ratio and some have been tight even with the tuning key screw completely loose. I'm just going to replace all of them.
I still have the original Grovers on my 76 MSA and they're still butter smooth and easy to tune at a higher gear ratio.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 23 Nov 2018 12:56 am
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no
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 24 Nov 2018 9:53 am
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Since Sperzels won't be a direct replacement, I may just switch to Grover mini's or Schaller M6 keys. I prefer a higher gear ratio. Since Grovers are made in China, I'm leaning toward Schaller, but I have to dissect the specifics of shaft length and other dimensions first. I have a drill press, so I can alter the two shaft lengths on 6 & 7 if needed (U-12 guitar).
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Nov 2018 2:59 am
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sadly, the dimensions and shaft sizes are not consistent with other brands. Thats the biggest problem, not necessarily the stiff tuners. Ya just can't replace them with brand X.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Roy Peterman
From:
Muncy Valley, Pennsylvania
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Posted 25 Nov 2018 7:48 am Sperzel tuners
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| Dennis, the Sperzel tuning keys in your 82 Zum should be a direct change out with new Sperzels. I replaced the Sperzels in my 83 SKH with new keys, and they were a direct change out. Maybe you know something I don't, Tony. I would contact Sperzel to see if the "footprint" of their keys has changed since 1982. I had no problem dealing with Sperzel on ordering the tuners. I ordered 5 right, and 5 left chrome plated "solid pro" tuners with the short shafts, which to the best of my memory were around .750 (measured from the body housing to the end of the shaft.) I hope this info helps. Their web-site is; http://www.sperzel.com/ |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 25 Nov 2018 7:58 am
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If the surface side of the key head fits the outside dimensions of a mini-tuner and the shaft is at least 1 inch long on a Grover or Schaller, I can make it work. The shafts on my original Sperzel tuners are 1 inch long. If the keyhead requires 12 bushings to make another brand of key shaft size fit, it's feasible. It should just require a good drill press and maybe a tap/die set, which I have.
I need to pull one of the Sperzels and mic it's dimensions and check the measurement specs of the Grover and Schaller mini's. Just looking at the key head, it looks like it has enough surface to accommodate a different brand of mini-tuner. I like the tunability of a 16:1 or 18:1 tuner. Sperzel is 12:1 which is too low to tune quickly and accurately, but I can live with 12:1 if Sperzel has improved.
I emailed Sperzel about replacement keys and haven't gotten a reply yet. I'm sure my inquiry similar to previous emails they've received.
When I get this upgrade completed, I'll post results and a photo.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Roy Peterman
From:
Muncy Valley, Pennsylvania
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Posted 25 Nov 2018 8:48 am
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| Dennis, the longer shaft on a Sperzel is just under an inch at .901 which is darn close to an inch. The 12/1 ration is actually quicker to tune than a Grover or Schaller. I have had Sperzel, Grover, and Schaller tuners on various guitars over the years and they all are really good tuners IMHO. I installed mini (210c) Grovers on a guitar before, but they definitely have a different "footprint" than the Sperzels. I made a template to drill the locating pin hole for the keys. I think the barrel of the tuning key required a 10mm drill bit to bore the key hole out. And of course, different guitars have thicker keyheads than others which complicates things. Good luck in your endeavor |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 25 Nov 2018 9:08 am
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I have the original Grovers on my 1976 MSA and never had an issue with them, but they were U.S. made back then. They are smooth to tune and higher gear ratio (slower to tune) which is what I'd like. The 12:1 Sperzel tuners make it harder to tune accurately (easy to go past pitch with a slight turn).
But, I still have to do some measuring and look at different brand specs before I settle on a choice. I may just end up with new Sperzel's.
I'll keep ya'll posted.
Thanks for the input.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 27 Nov 2018 3:30 pm
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After hours of reading specs of different brands and models of tuners and taking measurements I settled on ordering Grover mid-size 305 Rotomatics for my Zum. It will probably require some minor modifications of the keyhead and maybe some on the tuner itself, but they should be made to work. Plus, they are 18:1 ratio. When I'm finished getting it back together, I'll reply with details and results.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 28 Nov 2018 1:48 am Re: Sperzel tuners
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| Roy Peterman wrote: |
| Dennis, the Sperzel tuning keys in your 82 Zum should be a direct change out with new Sperzels. I replaced the Sperzels in my 83 SKH with new keys, and they were a direct change out. Maybe you know something I don't, Tony. I would contact Sperzel to see if the "footprint" of their keys has changed since 1982. I had no problem dealing with Sperzel on ordering the tuners. I ordered 5 right, and 5 left chrome plated "solid pro" tuners with the short shafts, which to the best of my memory were around .750 (measured from the body housing to the end of the shaft.) I hope this info helps. Their web-site is; http://www.sperzel.com/ |
Thx, I spent a good deal of time with Sperzel. My Steels are Emmons, they did not have any replacements for the Sperzels used on Emmons or Sho Bud steels. Who can say why. This is a common problem with Sperzels used on Emmons Steels. And I can say first hand that the dimensions of those Sperzels along with Grovers and Klusons, are not the same. I did the dance. The Steel was an 83 D10 Push Pull.
Sperzel made and still makes various style/size tuners. That is correct. At issue is the ones used on Emmons Steels in the 80's. I can't speak to any issues with Zum Steels.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Roy Peterman
From:
Muncy Valley, Pennsylvania
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Posted 28 Nov 2018 5:31 am
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| No, Sperzel does not have pedal steel guitar sets per say, but they do make tuners that will fit Emmons guitars. You have to pick out the proper shaft and barrel length. I have done this twice. I have had 3 Emmons guitars with Sperzel tuners. They make 3 shaft lengths to fit different thicknesses of headstocks and key heads. I included a link to the specs of the Sperzel tuners for a comparison. Certainly, Grover and Schaller tuners have a different "footprint". I know this can be confusing but it can be done. I have Sperzels on my Emmons SKH that I have currently, and the new ones I put on were a direct change out. www.tkinstruments.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 1:59 am
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thx Ron, another "issue" not talked about is the size ( thickness ) of the Sperzel tuner body. C6 tuner #1 can easily interfere with E9th tuner #10 on D10's . Sperzel still offers the small button tops which helps with this.
Due diligence required ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 3:27 am
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| The button size is not a problem on a Franklin. I have the "wide" Sperzel button tops and they do not interfere with each other. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 30 Nov 2018 7:48 am
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It's been several days and I never got an email reply from Sperzel.
I ordered two sets of medium size 305 Grover Rotomatic's (6+6)for my U-12. All Sperzels are 12:1 ratio. I like 18:1 which is the main reason I went to Grover. They won't be a direct replacement, but I have a drill press with vise to make any modifications. Tuners get here tomorrow. So, that's next week's project. For future Zum owner reference, I'll reply with the procedure and photos.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 5 Dec 2018 8:52 pm
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I had to modify a little more than I'd expected.
1) I had to bore out the mounting holes in the key head with a 25/64 bit to accommodate the Grover 305 tuners.
2) The Grover comes with a small wood screw for stabilizing the position of the tuner. The Zum key kead was a tight fit which required a slight filing to make the tuner fit into the key head space. I bought 3/16 roll pins to replace the wood screws and drilled a hole for each of the 12 roll pins (each tuner).
3) The tuner dimensions are made to accomdate the thicker guitar head, so I had to file a little off of the 12 shaft nuts and add twelve 1/4 inch chrome collars. Each collar had to be beveled on one edge to accommodate the curve on the inside of the keyhead at each of the 12 tuners.
4) Tuner 6 & 7 needed the end of their shafts shortened to accomdate mounting.
All drilling was done on a drill press. Grinding was done on a table belt sander and filed.
I bought the collars and roll pins at Ace Hardware. The collars are 5/16 ID X 1/4 long and I drilled out the inside diameter to 25/64. A chrome washer came with each tuner.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.
Last edited by Dennis Detweiler on 5 Dec 2018 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 5 Dec 2018 8:57 pm
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I left the original Sperzel pin holes open. The lash on the Grovers is zero. The 18:1 ratio is super smooth and easy to tune. Night and day difference.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Dec 2018 12:41 am
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nice work ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 6 Dec 2018 5:14 am
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Another unexpected feature after installing new strings last night, the Grover spacing matched the roller nut spacing much better than before. The strings are actually in-line from the rollers to the tuning key string hole.
The knobs are smaller and likely would allow more clearance on a D-10.
Total cost for this project was $125.00 for a 12 string.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Dec 2018 10:20 am
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
Total cost for this project was $125.00 for a 12 string. |
and of course labor and advanced engineering is always free ! 
My guess would be if you were to do this for someone it would be in the $350 +/- range including parts for a D10.
Great work ! But probably not a good career !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 6 Dec 2018 10:54 am
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I would love to what Dennis has done to my Rains SD10, but I only have hand tools. I think it would be foolish to make such an attempt. Wouldn't this be an easy job for a machine shop?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 6 Dec 2018 11:47 am
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Ha! No, it's not a career. To have the work done by a machine shop would be expensive. It's not a difficult job to do. You could probably do it with a hand drill and file if you're steady and have a good eye. Drilling for the roll pins would require the steady eye. I fastened the tuners to the key head, then drilled the holes for the roll pins. A different brand of guitar key head may not require having to bevel the edge of the chrome spacers. My key head is 7/32 thick. If it was slightly thicker, I could have eliminated filing down the threaded barrel nuts.
You can find the dimensions of Grover and Schaller tuners on-line and find which brand and model of tuner would fit best. Grover makes 210 specifically for steel guitar, but it is 14:1 ratio and I wanted 18:1. It just cost me a little more time with the 305.
Having a drill press and drill press vice just makes it quicker and easier to line up the holes and get them straight.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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