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Topic: Traditions, are they a limiting factor? |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 14 Feb 2006 9:27 am |
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There is much about the PSG that seems to be tradition controlled:
1. Tapered neck.
2. Key heads & string lengths.
3. Round legs.
4. Neck blocks.
5. Tunings.
6. String gauges.
7. Body materials.
The above items all function, but is it possible that variations on those themes might provide interesting alternatives?
My pet annoyance at the moment is string gauges re tuning vs. temperature. The gauges seem to be picked in an attempt to provide approximately equal tension per string (by calculation as opposed to measurement). This, and the variation in string length (not scale length) provides a poor choice for tuning vs. temperature; equal string stretch per cent would be better.
If this was done, and the body expansion tracked the string length expansion, life would be more play and less tweak.
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Mark Metdker
From:
North Central Texas, USA
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 14 Feb 2006 12:37 pm
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On a totally subjective level, I find untapered necks visually unappealing. I felt this way 22 years ago when I saw the Whitney, and I still feel this way.
Sorry Ed.
This of course has nothing to do with the quality or characteristics of an instrument. It's more along the lines of color preference. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Feb 2006 5:11 pm
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| Looking at your list, Ed, I think all of those aspects of design have changed at one time or another on certain brands. Like Mike, I like the tapered necks, though I'm sure no one can prove it's anything but a styling gimmick. I also think keyed steels are prettier (not as plain?) than keyless models, though there are technical advantages to each. In the end, it's the consumers, through their buying habits, that determines what is mainstream and what is fringe. Luckily, if anyone is adamant about any one of the features you listed, they can find a steel that employs it. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 15 Feb 2006 6:51 am
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I remember starting a topic re: pedal steels based on outmoded concepts.
Style; function; so many different elements.
Sometimes I think stylistic elements don't change because players want to do everything they can to retain that 'classic' sound. (Of course, a beginner wouldn't know what that sounds like.) I liken it to building a better '49 Mercury.
I would like to see more steels that push the envelope. I look on Ed's Beast as the height of steel evolution. It's an all-business design.
Tapered neck? Does a steel guitar actually need a 'neck?' Does a neck or keyhead actually improve sound or functioning? |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 15 Feb 2006 7:29 am
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Mark M...It seems that MSA chose to use the Carbon Fiber body with Titanium rods, then withdrew the Titanium, and now is looking at doing wood bodies again (also?). Donny H is the source of the Titanium info.
The CF (aircraft stuff) Has a great strength to bulk ratio, but a negative (-.03 to - 1.3) thermal expansion coefficient, hence the strings grow vs. temp while it does not. This is only of concern if the bridge to nut distance is controlled by the body, not the metal of the mechanisms and whatever the neck block etc. might be. I have not had the chance to check into that yet. The CF makes for a pretty instrument, although the early ones looked sort of "plastic".
Mike P... "beauty is in the eye.." etc. Probably influenced by tradition, or what one is most familiar with. Do I detect a bit of "conservative" in this preference?
I like the wider spacing on the left for hammer ons and pull offs...It also allows having the changer on the left without redesigning the changer.
Color can be more than a matter of pretty if you play where the sun shines on your instrument = thermal issues again.
No need for the "sorry"...no alternative views = no need for discussion, and everyone loses.
Donny H...I agree that a steel can be found with "any one" of the items listed, but with two or more becomes a problem. Just trying to find a keyless cuts down the number of makes available...then a body of other than wood...then ask for 14 strings and the choice drops to about two (compromising on the body material).
I tried the BEAST on several makers and they politely declined to do it... too much different for the status quo. I can't blame them, they are in the business to make money, not necessarily to "improve the breed". It took six years to find a maker that would do it and they were just coming back after bankruptcy (= hungry?). I did the changer/tuner integration design in hardware, they (SIERRA) prettied it up and made the instrument...fine job by Don and Tom.
Re the tapered neck...I believe that it is a hangover form the days that the Spanish guitar was laid flat to become the Haw' guitar. The key head, neck taper, and a few string gauges are all that is left to identify the ancestors.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I am starting on the design of an individual string pickup for my monster. Will probably try for thermal expansion matched gauges in the same time frame.
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2006 3:44 pm
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Ed, I think that traditions are an important part of the equation when you want to follow what has come before. The pedal steel of today is very similar to the steels from 40 years ago if you talk about aesthetics. The mechanical side of the pedal steel has advanced dramatically so that guitars stay in tune, have minimum "cabinet drop", etc.
At the same time, I think that there is a path for evolution of the pedal steel as a "performance" instrument where pickups, string spacing and other parameters are considered for optimizing the universality of the instrument. By this I mean that the "standard" pedal steel lends itself to the signature sounds that we have treasured over the years. It does not easilly lend itself to the type of modifications we see in 6 string guitars with multiple pickups, pickups that interact with personal computers, necks and bodies made of various woods to adjust tone, etc.
I really applaud the direction you are going with the Beast. It may not have much of a market appeal for traditional pedal steel players but the possibilities for use in more genres seem endless.
Karlis
[edited to correct spelling errors][This message was edited by Karlis Abolins on 15 February 2006 at 03:45 PM.] |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 15 Feb 2006 4:07 pm
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| Quote: |
| Mike P... "beauty is in the eye.." etc. Probably influenced by tradition, or what one is most familiar with. Do I detect a bit of "conservative" in this preference? |
Conservative? Moi? BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!
The Tapered/untapered neck thing is on the same purely emotional level as one's color preference.
When we say "there's no accounting for taste" we usually mean it as a put down, but the truth is that there really is no accounting for it. Some people like Chinese food, and some prefer Italian. (My problem, as my waistline shows, is that I like it all way too much, but that's a subject for a different thread.)[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 16 February 2006 at 08:33 AM.] |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 16 Feb 2006 6:14 am
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"Improving the breed...."
Kudos to the manufacturer who will take such a step; the knowledge they gain may take them to the forefront in the future.
There is a new generation of steelers waiting out there, and the stylistic cues to the instrument's past may not mean much.
I admire a vintage guitar, but I wouldn't take a drive of several hundred miles to see anything but the forefront of development. It's still a relatively young instrument, so there's much that can be done. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 16 Feb 2006 6:42 am
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| Well, I think the neck is tapered to keep the lid on the case from slamming shut. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 18 Feb 2006 7:16 am
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Karlis A...I can buy into the idea about the "traditional look", but it is only for steel players to look at...the rest of the world (even when half sober) thinks that it is an electric table. This is kinda' like..if he wears the hat and boots, he must be a cowboy!...that's after shave lady, not eau d' cow pucky!
If I was to go into the steel making business, I would make tradition, buy the cabinets from the good cabinet maker, keep my inventory at the vendors (QA rejections) till I needed it, and sell lacquer and shine = make money 101. I am not in the steel business so I am free to try out what some might call screwball ideas. I see very little "engineering" going on to "improve the breed". You are one of the few that have offered ideas in both hardware and software for public consumption on the Forum (applaud here).
I do not tie up the "intellectual property" aspects of what I tinker with in the PSG world...it is up for anyone to use or not as they see fit (Zirc bars, integrated changer and keyless tuner, 13 series tuning structure, virtual rack, plus more to come, etc.).
I threatened to send you some "stuff" as I recall, now if I can just find your Snail address again.
Mike P...You should not give me an open door re one liners (the weight thing) as lines like...you may be one of the heavyweights of the PSG world, or something about...coming on the Forum and throwing your weight around!...since you CLAIM to be a "Liberal" you probably won't mind. So much for "lap steels".
Charlie...You could tell the Pioneers, they were the ones with arrows in the bodies! Changes are made by but a few in any field...most folk spend their time building fences around what they own.
Stephan G...you should not leave your "lid" sitting on your case right in plain sight like that...it could put you in the slam'er!
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 Feb 2006 1:32 pm
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Hey Ed, you know I have to "weigh in" on all these subjects.
Seriously, I like the idea of the changer fingers and tuning keys together on the left side of guitar. I think one of the reasons many lap steels sound so much richer than many pedal steels is that the ball ends of the strings make more direct contact with the body.
Are you going to make any more zirconia bars? I love mine. I collect bars and have about 50, but the zirc is the one I actually use. |
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Pat Kelly
From:
Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 20 Feb 2006 1:16 pm
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| Yes, tradition is a limiting factor. Mainly because of people's inherent conservatism but also because of an natural commonsense which tells people that the tried and tested methods are a reasonable starting point in any venture. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with change. Change however should be a reactive process to perceived shortcomings in the current situation. The end goal is improvement. Resist the all too common mentality which insists on throwing out anything which is old and substituting anything which is new. Change for change's sake can be a very destructive force. |
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Jon Jaffe
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 20 Feb 2006 2:06 pm
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| I had an opportunity to look closely at The Beast last year and it is quite remarkable. The L sided changer was cool to say the least. What I wonder regarding tuning v. temperature, is whether or not the 30" scale has an equal or greater influence on this factor than string guage? |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 20 Feb 2006 3:37 pm
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Pat K...And, yes, I did react to some perceived (by me) shortcomings in the common PSG; let me state some:
1. The key head takes up room, thereby lengthening the instrument, and adding weight. The keyless/gearless is somewhat better as it allows shortening the instrument. Better still is combining the changer and keyless/gearless tuner thereby making a simpler less expensive mechanism (simplicity pleads for itself, less expensive pleads to my purse...Shakespearean, what?)
2. The string length to scale length difference on the Common PSG is from 2" to 7", with the center strings the longest. Some super pickers put sleeving on these to damp out harmonics that they seem to hear. Extra stretched string means more chance for not returning to pitch after activating and releasing a change. With the advent of the changer/tuner combined, the string length vs. scale length can approach one, and the strings are all the same length. Furthermore, the pre stretching the string that was common on the previous keyless units is no longer needed...further simplification, and the fastest string change going.
3. With the Changer/tuner as a single simple unit we have a decision to make...do we make the instrument shorter and lighter, or do we make a longer scale = more instrument to play...I chose the longer scale = 29.370" = the 25" scale with several added frets. The E9 now becomes a C9.
4. The changer on the players right approach puts all the changer noise and string stretch near the pickups...Changer/tuner on the players left does the opposite, and all the tuning is done with the hand that does not have the picks on. The bar hand further blocks the changer noise.
5. The bridge is now open for an interchangeable rod for further tone variation possibilities.
6. Might as well add in a second pickup for added tone variation, and some "active" voltage followers to eliminate the tendency of the pot pedals to suck out the highs.
7. The Aluminum extrusion body is not only rugged and simple, but the thermal expansion of the aluminum body and tuner rods compensates somewhat for that of the strings.
Jon J...8. The TCE for any length of string is the same for that type of string...each inch expands/contracts the same amount for a given temperature change. Where the string length counts, is related to how much it is stretched to bring it to pitch...a longer string must be stretched more than it would if it were shorter. Different gauges stretch different amounts to get to pitch. Equal tension does not give equal stretch on different gauges. This being the case, by measurement, there are string types & gauges that are better for thermally related tuning problems than others. If all strings can be made the same length, and made to stretch the same amount to get to pitch, with the same TCE, then cents change with temperature will be the same, so the strings will stay "in relative tune". They will NOT stay in "absolute tune". Right now they do neither...The longer scale/string length is not the offending item.
9. With the chosen body structure, the Neck Block is no linger needed...suspend the Fretboard on rails and that leaves room beneath it for adding circuitry, back lighting, or other things.
This all falls into the category of "no sins recognized, hence no Messiahs needed". As Pat said, "perceived shortcomings" are a causative force toward change...if you don't perceive the shortcomings, you won't want to see change, and might even be hostile to it...unless it is a new lacquer job.
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