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Topic: 3rd string replacement question |
Mike Beley
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 2:21 pm |
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This is what happens when you crack a joke about someone else breaking their 3rd string.
I broke 2 today (one was a side cutter and brain disconnect while trimming excess past the tuner).
If you HAD to use a normal guitar string as a replacement what would you use?
I have a "9" in there right now and it's holding up, but I'm terrified, as I play on stage in 3 and a half hours.
Also, it's a stat holiday here today and the only store with PSG strings is closed, I drove by and thought about breaking in lol. |
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William Holloman
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 2:56 pm
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| Yes...it'll work for tonight. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 3:07 pm
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I use regular guitar strings. I order normal E9 gauges in bulk from JustStrings. My 3rd string is a .0115. I am not a pro player but I do local gigs with full confidence in these strings. I’ve had very little breakage and reasonably stable tuning.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 14 Nov 2018 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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William Holloman
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 3:10 pm
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Fred: I understood JUST STRINGS doesn't carry psg strings anymore. I used to order from them, then no more options.
They carryin' again ? |
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Jack Goodson
From:
new brockton,alabama (deceased)
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 3:14 pm just strings?
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| i just ordered sit stringsfrom them today....jack |
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William Holloman
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 3:18 pm
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WOW !! Thanks Jack. SIT's are my favorite. I'll try again.
BILL |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 6:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| If you HAD to use a normal guitar string as a replacement what would you use |
Hate to burst bubbles, but unless some small company is winding their own strings AND "drawing" their own wire - a VERY expensive process - there is absolutely NO difference between "regular guitar strings" and "pedal steel guitar strings".
Wire is made in various alloys and gauges ( and in some diameters - shapes) in huge rolls that contain MILES of wire.
There are only a few companies that "draw" wire - make the actual raw wire that's used for cores and windings. It requires very expensive, computer-controlled machinery.
There are also only a few actual winders. Except for coatings, plating and ball end wraps plain steel strings are made by the few companies that "draw" the wire.
There are more that do ball-end winding and adding wire wrap - but most of the names you see on small string company products are just that - "names" . They have their strings made by GHS, SIT, Elixir, Ernie Ball, Everly/Cleartone, D'Addario, Fender, Gibson, Pyramid, Thomastik Infeld, Rotosound, D'Angelico, Dunlop, and one of the biggest makers of "private label" strings - Darco. and a few others.
Most limited-distribtion and small-market strings are made by one of the big guys. And again, only a half-dozen or so of the "winders" make the actual wire - they buy the same stuff as everyone else.
This doesn't just come from string companies themselves - part of my family has been in the ire business for decades and draws the wire for many of the very familiar names.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 7:39 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
Hate to burst bubbles, but unless some small company is winding their own strings AND "drawing" their own wire - a VERY expensive process - there is absolutely NO difference between "regular guitar strings" and "pedal steel guitar strings".
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I have suspected as much for many years. It’s one of the reasons I buy in bulk; the other being that it’s about half the cost of strings in brand name packaging.
JustStrings warns about using “pedal steel strings†for “regular guitarâ€, because if you tune your guitar to pitch using gauges that were meant for pedal steel, you will throw the guitar neck into a pretty serious bow. In short, JustStrings has to protect themselves from idiots. So they sell “pedal steel strings†in the “pedal steel strings†section of their website, and only in the brand-name packaging that specifies “pedal steel†tuning. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 8:50 pm 3rd string replacement question
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I once used a standard guitar string to replace string 3 till I got a supply local. It lasted a few days.
I have no place local to buy my 12U strings.
I order my strings from JUST STRINGS 6 sets at a time. About a month ago I ordered 6 set of Lay's SIT 12 U Stainless wound strings. 1 set was in paper envelopes and plastic flap top set pack. 5 sets are in new packaging, Each string sealed in a plastic envelope, And then the whole set is sealed in a plastic package.
Looked in my Seat and My extra .011 had dates of 2007 on them. (OH NO) I ordered 6 extra single Lay's .011 strings. They came in sealed plastic envelopes with logo VCI (Vapor Corrosion Inhibitor) on each package. Looks like Lay's SIT has raised the bar on protecting strings until they are installed on the guitar. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Nov 2018 8:58 pm
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| Quote: |
If you HAD to use a normal guitar string as a replacement what would you use?
I have a "9" in there right now and it's holding up, but I'm terrified, as I play on stage in 3 and a half hours. |
I have never seen a pedal steel set with a .009 gauge string for E9 3rd. I suppose someone might make one with .010, but almost all of them have .011, .0115, or .012. Just get a single string with whatever of those you prefer, it will be far better than a .009, IMO. Go get one (or several) at a music store, or hijack one from a standard guitar set. Or as Jack suggests, get some bulk singles. I have used juststrings bulk plains as spares for years, I have noted zero issues, they have lasted as long as anything I've tried. Same with just plain old Ernie Ball, D'Addario, or GHS guitar strings in the appropriate gauge.
I agree with Jim that there are a relatively few makers who truly wind and make their own strings, and even far fewer makers who draw musical instrument wire.
That said, there are differences between strings. I keep lots of strings around, for guitar (electric and acoustic, and for fretted and slide playing in lots of different tunings), steel (pedal and nonpedal), banjo, bass, you name it. I keep tons of singles that I buy in bulk (juststrings are my favorite), as well as a bunch of different types of sets. Even just looking at them or measuring them (with a micrometer), it is possible to discern significant differences in the winding material, the way in which the ends are finished at the ball- or loop-end (the loop and the twist), the ratio of core-to-total gauge thickness, and a bunch of other things. And I think there are tangible differences in feel and tone - e.g., pure nickel wrap over a round core definitely feels and sounds different to me than nickel-plated or stainless over a hex core. But I don't think there is any "magic mojo" in any particular brand.
For pedal steel, I think one of the most important qualities of a string is how it's finished at the ball end. First, the twist at the ball-end should not be too long - you want to keep that thick twisted end away from the crown of the changer finger. Second, the twist and loop should be very secure and well-done - some strings are deficient in this respect. I think you can tell a lot by looking at the string.
Beyond that, I think a lot of the differences between strings come down to tonal preference. Given my druthers, I prefer pure nickel wrappings on most electric Spanish guitars, but stainless and Bobbe Seymour's Cobra Coil on pedal steel. But if I have to replace with a standard nickel-plated wound string (which is what I generally get for bulk wound strings) on either, it's not the end of the world.
I think pedal steel sets are just fine, and certainly convenient. But if you put on a string with the same basic construction, gauge, and core-to-total gauge ratio, you should be fine. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 6:35 am
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I pull a 10 out of a pack of guitar strings.
A 9 will work to get thru the gig, but I had to do that once it was about half the volume of the other strings.
I keep a stash of 11's in my glove box, in addition the stash in my steel seat. |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 7:32 am
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Just a comment on something that I didn't see mentioned.....
If you change a string gauge, and you have a pedal or knee on that string, you're going to need to readjust/retune, and that could lead to other issues, namely not being able to do it.
I agree that it is better to carry a few spare sets, and more than a handful of the "problem" strings, in the correct gauges.
My experience has been that once you get a string on and up to pitch, it probably will stay for a while and not break.
I remember one time breaking a 3rd string, and in the process of replacing it breaking 3-4 more new ones. I checked the rollers and everything else. I chalked it up to a bad lot of strings.
I know that carrying spare gear and being prepared is a radical concept, but....... |
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Mike Beley
From:
Alberta, Canada
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 10:05 am
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Ok, I was under the understanding that PSG strings were constructed a bit different than regular guitar strings.
I went with a 9 under the theory that I usually use an 11, and a "regular" 9 would hold up to the punishment from the pedals a bit better.
I made it through the 4 long hours. Sounded good, felt fine.
No broken strings!
Great info in these replies!
I'll take this advice from Dave Mudgett for sure...
"For pedal steel, I think one of the most important qualities of a string is how it's finished at the ball end. First, the twist at the ball-end should not be too long - you want to keep that thick twisted end away from the crown of the changer finger. Second, the twist and loop should be very secure and well-done - some strings are deficient in this respect. I think you can tell a lot by looking at the string."
It's great to know I can keep a stash of "regular" guitar strings in my case to get by when I pop any of the 1-4. That 3rd string is a fragile victim of constant abuse. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 10:22 am
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Just replace the 3rd before every other gig or so, and the whole set about every coupla months, and you will never break a string on stage.
We should never break a string on stage during a gig. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 10:37 am
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| Quote: |
| Ok, I was under the understanding that PSG strings were constructed a bit different than regular guitar strings |
Some pedal steel strings are advertised as being constructed differently. For example, GHS has specific "pedal guitar" strings for certain high-failure type strings, such as .011p (E9 3rd) and .017p (E9 5th). They come in GHS E9 sets I sometimes use, and you can get them singly, e.g., here - http://www.juststrings.com/pedalsteelplainsteelghsguitarsinglestrings.html
I think the main effort with these is to strengthen and shorten the finishing of the string - i.e., loop and twist. If you check, you'll see that they cost about the same as regular plain GHS singles. But for spares, I just get the best bulk sets I can find, about 1/3 the price and I have had no issues with them. I'm pretty confident that the specialized pedal-steel set makers also spec their strings to try to firm up the finishing to be stronger and shorter.
| Quote: |
| If you change a string gauge, and you have a pedal or knee on that string, you're going to need to readjust/retune, and that could lead to other issues, namely not being able to do it. |
This is what I was driving at with this comment:
| Quote: |
| I think pedal steel sets are just fine, and certainly convenient. But if you put on a string with the same basic construction, gauge, and core-to-total gauge ratio, you should be fine. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 10:41 am
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Years ago, I was playing a Sho~Bud Fingertip guitar.
I was trying to get it tuned up to play a church dedication and I kept breaking the 3rd string.
I don't remember how many I broke but, finally, I ran out of strings.
I scouted all over Denver for a replacement string and the only thing I found that would work was the thin 5th string for a banjo.
It got me through a crisis! 
Erv |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2018 8:55 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I think the main effort with these is to strengthen and shorten the finishing of the string - i.e., loop and twist. |
There is never a simple answer to what seem like simple direct questions with pedal steel. I did not know about shorter windings on the ball ends. I am going to check that out next time I buy a set of packaged strings and see if it makes a difference. Thank you, Dave.
Jackson is doing something a little unusual with their strings.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=338243 |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 14 Nov 2018 10:28 am
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What Dave M stated is true. I built Sierras in the late 70’s. We would order tubes of individually gauged strings from Squier. Each tube contained about 144 strings of a given gauge. The strings were exactly the same as those used on regular guitars.
All strings were ordered with the extra secure ball end wrap (as opposed to the high and loose wrap prevalent in Ernie Ball strings). We had the best tone and breakage results w/ .012 3rd strings. My guess is that even though they require greater tension to raise, the 12s are stronger. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 14 Nov 2018 10:31 am
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Error
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 14 Nov 2018 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 14 Nov 2018 11:05 am
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Since I switched to .012" for my 3rd string (about five years ago) I have had far fewer breakages. I liked the tone better than the .011" straight away.
I've used Jagwires for at least ten years now.
If I'm doing a show (maybe eight performances a week) I will change the 3rd weekly. My biggest fear, though, is breaking the 5th - while playing without that G# is a minor inconvenience, you're dead in the water without the B string. I tend to change that one at the same time. 'Belt and braces', as we say in the Old Country.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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