Split tuning question

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I was wondering if it is possible to use a split tuning on an E's lower to be used in combination with just the C pedal to achieve an A+F change straight from having B+C down together?

Does the E lower go low enough for a split to do any good?

Also...if one were to do away with the C pedal and put an E to F# change on a lever, where would one think to put it. It seems like it might work well on the LKV, but would the throw be too long, or too stiff to be workable?

Pat Kelly · From: Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia

I'm not sure that I've got you right but from B+C to C with fourth string lower gives the A+F change sure. Major chord on 6, 5, 4, and 3. Works for me.

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Yeah, I just can't get mine in tune. The fourth string remains too sharp. I was wondering if there is a way I can fix that so that it might be useable for me.

I'm still new to this instrument, so mechanical issues are a bit confusing, but I am pretty good with tuning to just intonation, and on my Carter an F raise on the fourth string comes out to about 18 cents flat to be in tune with A+F. With C and the E lower, that fourth string F is about 10 cents sharp, making it unuseable, without some sort of compensation. Just wondering how that might work.

Thanks.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Rob,
Your guitar must be outfitted with 'split tuners' -- an optional feature on some guitars, standard on others, and not available on some makes and models.

A 'split tuner' is usually set up as a set screw tapped into the changer end of the guitar which allows you to tune a raise, a lower, and a split. For example, you raise a whole tone on the C pedal. You tune that change as usual at the endplate. HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE. You tune the SPLIT with the nylon nut that tunes the lower -- so set it for F, however you temper or tamper it. Then you tune the LOWER using the set screw tapped into the changer finger.

Most people do not use this particular split, mostly because it doesn't allow the 8th string to be used. Should work fine with strings 3,4,5,6.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Guys, maybe I'm having a premature senior moment, but wouldn;t you need to let go of the B pedal to get the A+F notes here (G#-C#-E#[=F])?

(Maybe I just need more coffee: three cups just isn't cutting it today)

Dan

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

B+C = F# D# A F# C# A F#
C alone = F# D# G# F# C# G# F#
(the F#'s still there)
To get the F (or E# if you wish) with the C pedal down you must lower the (already raised) F#
It usually isn't in tune without explicitly tuning it with a split tuner

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Thanks for your answers Mr. Bell.

I guess then I would need to have the split tuner on the C pedal, in order to be able to tune an extra lower. The split I have on the guitar presently is on the knee lever, which was for a different change that came on the guitar from the factory. That rules out that idea, at least for the immediate future.

So, any ideas on putting the 4th string whole tone raise on a lever, and doing away with the C pedal?

What change would you take from a lever and put on that pedal instead?

Anybody out there doing this?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Mr. Fenton

You may be confusing a HALF STOP with a SPLIT.

Split tuning is not attached to a particular lever or pedal. It is attached to a particular STRING. It consists of a set screw that's adjusted at the endplate.

A half stop is often a spring loaded device that allows the player to tune and find, for example, the midpoint of a whole tone raise or lower. The most common place to put a half stop is on the 2nd string lower to be able to get D# (open), D, and C# using only one lever. Half stops are rarely used on pedals because they interfere with the feel of the pedal and it's easier to feel the half stop on a lever.

You didn't mention whether your Carter is a student or pro model. Most student models do NOT have split tuners. Many pro models do. Older guitars (before 1980 or so) often do not have split tuning capability (e.g., older MSA's, Sho-Buds, original push-pull Emmons guitars, etc.)

Some folks do put E to F# on a lever. I do not personally advocate that modification since I use the C pedal for uptempo patterns that can't be done as easily (or as fast) using a knee lever.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 08 February 2006 at 12:18 PM.]

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Hmmn...let me see,

It is a Carter Pro model, and what I was referring to is that there is an extra rod in the bellcrank for my RKL 6th string whole tone lower, that is attached as a raise, for use with the B pedal to achieve an in tune G natural. In moving stuff around I was thinking of putting my E lowers on this lever, and thought I might be able to reuse that pull rod to do the split I typed about above.

It would not work to attach a second lower to the E's lower lever's bellcrank, would it.
Since the C pedal is making the larger move, and the combined changes leave the string sharp, I would have to attach the extra lower to the C pedal bell crank that corresponds with that string to achieve the split. I think...maybe...sorta...

Perhaps I don't understand at all.

Maybe I'll just leave it as is.

Thanks for your help!

Hmmn...now if I wanted to raise 7...

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Okay I see this a little clearer now.

The two pull rods on one bellcrank work the raise and lower at the same time on the same string, making that lever essentially a split tuning (simultaneous raise and lower)all by itself.

When the pedal is engaged, it's raise will overshoot the raise on the lever, making it redundant, and the split is between the raise on the pedal and the lower on the lever.

So, I tune the lower with both changes at the same time, then I tune the raise on the lever to get the the tempered pitch I desire with only the lever activated.

Okay, am I getting close now?

Even if it works, it would still leave me only able to use this change between strings 3 and 6, but that has been the area of my difficulty, so it might be worth a try.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Rob - Here is another discussion on split tuning, complete with a visual aid.

Lee

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sorry if I misled you, Rob
Earnest is absolutely correct. It didn't dawn on me that you were using a separate pull for the split. I've never used that solution since it takes up an additional slot in the changer and I usually have the set screw splits on my guitars. My apologies.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Rob Fenton · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Certainly no apologies necessary. Thanks for your input.

Rob.

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Actually the newer changer on the latest Carters (Nov 04 onwards) has got a Quad raise changer so it is no problem adding those extra rods !

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Basically the same can be done on strings 5 & 10, depending on what gauge strings you are using. When you raise 5 & 10 from (B) to (C#) and also Lower 5 & 10 a half/tone with the vertical you can tune in the resulting (C)-note with the nylon~tuners and then when you lower 5 & 10 alone, you can fine tune with the split/tuners if necessary! (Depending on your string~gauges, this process won't work.) I've found the split/tuners to be very useful!

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a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
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