Question for Paul Franklin about my Franklin

Jason Schofield · Posted 26 Jan 2006 12:00 pm

Dear Paul,
I thought I'd start another thread because I didn't want to disrupt the "lick pedal" thread. I was just hoping you could explain this copedant on my Franklin S10(135)guitar. I inherited it from my step-father who passed away and I've been practicing like crazy. I did call your father and he helped me with a few things. I still can't figure why there's a 6th string lower connected to the 1st string raise. Thanks for your help Paul. Jason Schofield

[This message was edited by Jason Schofield on 26 January 2006 at 12:06 PM.]

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Obviously I'm not Paul.

But, that is sort of a common knee lever change.

My guitar, which just happens to be a Franklin D-10, has one knee lever that raises the 1st string a full tone, raises the 2nd string a half tone and lowers the 6th string a full tone with a half tone lower "split" with the "B" pedal. I bought my Franklin new and specified that knee lever setup, which happens to be my Right Knee Left.

The last time I looked at the Carter Guitar Co site (it's been a while) that was one of their "standard" knee lever setups.

Having the 1st string and 6th string on the same knee lever works good as normally you are not using both of the strings at the same time. That is a logical place to have those changes - on the same knee lever. Sort of like having the 2nd string lowers and the 9th string lower on the same knee lever - normally you would not be playing both strings at the same time.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Jason, till Paul gets here. That's a very common change.At least 90% of the players use it.But one Paul chooses not to use.However there are thousands of uses for it. His goes like this.

1st string F# to G to G#
2md string Eb to E
7th string F# to G to G#

I'll let him explain why he took the road less traveled..............bb

Edit: Sorry Jack.Your post had not shown up when I started mine.Had I seen it?I would have stayed out of this.....bb

[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 26 January 2006 at 12:37 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Jack (and Jason), the more I look at it, the better I like it, being a big fan of having the G# lower on 6. Having the opposite raise on 1 is like having two of them in different ranges. I'm a sucker for a sus9.
Only thing I wonder is, they're expressed as half-stops on the chart. Does it work that way, when both have a full-step change?
That would be cool.

Franklin · Posted 26 Jan 2006 2:15 pm

Jason,

Please read the other thread. I already answered this question over in the "Lick Thread". The G# lower is in direct conflict with the majority of chords the F# to G# and Eb to E lever creates when its used with the A & B and B & C pedals. Over there I gave a pretty extensive lesson to explain why.

Everyone posting here is right that this is the way alot of folks including your step dad use it but that doesn't make it musically efficient. By doing it this way its no wonder most players comment on this forum that they use this change primarily for licks. There is so much more.

With the G# lower added to the change there is no possible A note which is needed because it is the root of the A major 7th chord voicings and the A note is the b3 of the 2 minor or F#- chord voicings and the A note is the 5th of the D major #11 or 7b #11 chord.

All of those chords really open up the E9th's harmonic possibilities. Also notice that the A note is also needed for the cool minor scale I posted. This scale also works great over a major chord as well.

Its all about how theory is applied to music. This lever change was designed to be used with both the A & B and B & C pedals. The G# lower eliminates those pedals which is a major harmonic conflict.

Since you asked for my advice, either accept the fact that you can't play the things I posted in the root position, which is most frequently used in songs, or find another place to lower the G# to F# to open up your copedant to allow for more possibilities.

Even if you have licks worked out using the Lowered G# on the same lever you can still get those by combining the two levers once you have them seperated. You will lose nothing by taking this path. Also raise the Eb to E with the F# to G# lever.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 January 2006 at 02:21 PM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 January 2006 at 02:25 PM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

well I certainly can't , and will not attempt to add to what Paul states here, and in the other LICKS thread, but I find this pretty amusing today..I had this exact conversation with a friend this morning..and pretty much told him, not quite exactly as PF has explained, that in my view the 6 lower on the same lever as 1 and 2 raise is a conflict.

My Steels have the 7 raise ( whole step, never thought of 1/2 step ) rather than 6 lower, yes true, reduntant, but..theres a plethora of music down there that can be explored and expanded using the 7th string raise which does not cause a conflict on this same lever.

SO what does all this really mean for me ?

probably nuthing..but at least if Paul comes to my house and inspects my Steels at least he won't say I have a conflict on that lever...I'm pretty sure he'll find a lot of other things to comment on though...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 January 2006 at 03:36 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

For the record.I did not mean to imply Pauls' change is not musically efficient. I've used the F# to G# on strings 1 and 7 since 1990. I added the Eb to E in 1995 after hearing Paul play at Newman's June Jam. However I also feel the 6th string G# to F# lower, split tuned to G. Is also very musically efficient.That's why I have 6 knees on my E9. I feel the below listed change is not musically efficient.

1st string F# to G#
2nd String Eb to E
6th string G# to F#

This combo shut's down a whole lot of musical possibilities.I don't want my 6th string whole tone lower and split mixed with either the high F# to G# or the Eb to E.And certainly don't want it on the same knee with both.I can't think of any of the greats that have all of the above listed changes on 1 knee.Yet many advanced players do. I feel it's a mistake. This is however just my opinion.

Having said all of that.Since Jason is a newbie.I feel the set-up he has will be easier to learn on than Pauls set-up.Especially if he wants to play more in the style of say Buddy Emmons or Tommy White. Just to name a few.Not that their styles can't be done on Paul's set-up.It's just a little harder to get the same flow.

Jason on the other hand.If Paul is your favorite player? And he's certainly one of mine. Or if you see the need for those changes in your head? I suggest you go ahead and have his changes put on your guitar.And then get busy.

Are you confused yet?

Best of luck to you.If I can ever help you.You know where to find me.......bb

[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 26 January 2006 at 06:22 PM.]

Dan Dowd · From: Paducah, KY, R.I.P.

I think John Hughey has this 1st,2nd 6th knee lever or did. He showed it to me a while ago.

[This message was edited by Dan Dowd on 27 January 2006 at 06:22 AM.]

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Well Jason, you being a new player, I'm going to add my .02 in on this one(which I normally don't do). Learn how to get from one position to another without knee levers. Use your three floor pedals. There's a whole lot of things you can find with pedals. Once you've learned how to do that pretty good, then start with one knee lever and add it to the three floor pedals. Keep it simple. Add as you go. Some of the best steel playing I've seen and heard was done with only two floor pedals. For a veteran player, adding new changes is simple and usually easy to adjust to. I change my set ups sometimes if I want a certain sound or lick. I've been at it since 71'. For new players that I've taught and met over the years there's one problem a lot of them run into. They go out and spend 3000.00 or 4000.00 on a loaded guitar with 8 & 8 or something and then there's so much there until it gets confusing. Keep it simple and master the basics. You'll do fine. Everybody looks at this topic differently and has there own opinions. I compare it to building a house. A strong foundation is needed for a solid house. Strong basics are needed to work off of for Psg.

Jason Schofield · Posted 27 Jan 2006 1:37 am

Thanks for all the replys. I wonder how hard it would be to change that 6th string lower over to make a 7th string raise? Or should I just remove the 6th string lower all together? Probably biting of more than I can chew. I don't think this guitar has any splits.

Paul - thanks for taking the time to answer a newbies question.

Billy - that is a great point too. Simplify. I just really want to understand how this crazy machine works and why.

BTW - there shouldn't be a 1/2 step on the 6th string lower. Paul Sr. explained that to me. I haven't fixed my chart.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jason, generally the change from 6 lower to 7 raise is very simple.

Remove the changer rod from string 6.

slide the 6th string lower bellcrank over to line up with the 7th string...

replace the rod, but this time in one of the RAISE fingers for string 7.

Yo may have to "work" to the find the proper raise position and bellcrank positon which allows the full step raise to be COMPLETE when the 1st string raise is complete. This is a full tone raise so it will be a longer pull rather than a shorter pull . Maybe a call over to PF Sr. will get the appropriate recommendation.

The changer finger position towards the bottom of the guitar( away from the changer) is the longer pull...the bellcrank position at the top of the bellcrank( farthest from the guitar body) allows for the longest pull.

You can probably do this in 10 or 15 minutes.

I would also recommend that you pull the 2nd string up 1/2 tone with this same lever. You may be able to do this with the existing bellcrank used for pulling string 1 a full tone. I am not sure of the bellcrank "CLIP" method used on the Franklins but all you would need is the clip and the rod to the 2nd string raise finger. If you are going to make a call to PF Sr. maybe ask him about this as well.

Both of my Steels have the 1st and 2nd raise on the same bellcrank.

Good luck, you have a great Steel..

------------------
------------------
TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 January 2006 at 02:01 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I second Tony. Exchanging those two pulls is relatively simple, and will give you a good idea of how the machine works.
The desired end result is a more useable instrument. Paul presents a pretty convincing case for how to do that.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Unless you have a way or the skill to do a good job bending and shaping rods.You'll need another bellcrank to add the second string raise.The rods go thru the center of Franklin bellcranks or rod pullers as Mr. Franklin prefers to call them.

Jason you show a 1/2 stop on your 6th string lower.If I where you?I'd keep what you have.Till you get the basics down.Just my opinion........bb

Franklin · Posted 27 Jan 2006 6:07 am

Jason,
I wasn't aware you were a new player. I was teaching at an advanced level. Print all of my posts and save them for later down the road.

For now, Just back off the nylon tuner of the 6th string lower so that it does not lower at all. All of the chord groups I posted will sound cool and even the scale I taught will work over a G major or E minor chord, although the 7th string note is different.

Bobby,
I always enjoy your input and I didn't see any negative implication towards my copedant. The term "Musical Efficiency" is a term I have used since teaching on the road with Jeff Newman.

What would you advise a player who is lowering the 6th string a half tone on the lever that raises the E's to F? Someone could say "there's alot of cool stuff there" and would be correct, but it also conflicts with the E raises in many other voicings so its advantage doesn't outweigh the negatives.

This is true with the F# to G# raise. Its strength lies in using it with the 6th strings open note and also with the B pedal raise.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 January 2006 at 06:11 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 January 2006 at 06:19 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 January 2006 at 06:20 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 January 2006 at 07:13 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 January 2006 at 07:17 AM.]

Jason Schofield · Posted 27 Jan 2006 9:21 pm

Paul,
Thanks again for your help. I loosened the 6th string lower off and it is easier to play those 7th chords and scales you showed now without the conflict. I think I would like to try and put the raise on the 7th string for a more basic setup. Jason

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: