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Topic: practicing arpeggios |
Andy Keen
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2018 9:17 am |
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| I'm curious if any of you fine players spend time practice arpeggios on a 6th tuning or E13th tuning? I'm particularly interested in using them to help my soloing on western swing. Any tips or links are appreciated. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 27 Aug 2018 9:49 am
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Hey Andy.
What are you looking for exactly? It is pretty easy to practice arpeggios, just practice them.
When I practice them, I start with a key and arpeggiate all the diatonic chords in that key. Then I move counter clockwise around the circle of 5ths. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 27 Aug 2018 3:25 pm
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Andy, for me it is all about arpeggios and much less about scales but I try to practice them in the context of a tune rather than as a dry exercise.
To develop this I will take a tune and slowly workout arpeggios for the different chords that lead from one to another in the same area of the neck. Working them out takes time but once you have finished they make a good exercise in learning arpeggio shapes but, more importantly, how they relate to one another.
Here is page 1 of one that I recorded over the changes to Misty for reso. Below that is one in A6 for Autumn Leaves that might be of more interest. It takes a bit of time to do this but the results are lasting.
Audio
https://soundcloud.com/guy-cundell/mistral
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Andy Keen
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2018 9:52 pm
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I appreciate the replies. I super appreciate this Etude, Guy! Also, I learned a new word!
Diatonic arpeggios are cool, but in my experience with anything that's 100% diatonic, it doesn't fit all songs, especially jazz.
I'm going to practice these arpeggios, they're great, plenty of 7ths.
Analyzing the arpeggios, there's a couple things I noticed.
-on a single chord, some are ascending only, descending only or mixed
-there's chromatic notes connecting them
-first note is accented most of the time
Those are good takeaways to help spice them up in the context of playing. I think these will be really handy to mix in with melodies.
I agree it must be painstaking to work these out since you're finding the closest convenient chord shape and not simply jumping the neck to the open position to play it. I could see how working out a few songs and memorizing them could really help develop a more natural integration. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 28 Aug 2018 1:13 am
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I Spent time learning 2 octave Arpeggios for All diatonic 7th chords in Major scales. Only to find 90% of what I like is merely a mode with chromaticism.
But I do love the challenge of arpeggio playing nearby outlining the changes.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 28 Aug 2018 6:03 am
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If you like jazz then practicing arpeggios counter clockwise through through the circle of 5ths can be beneficial
Here is one method that will keep you busy:
1. Create a spreadsheet with your tuning. Start with the Key of C. What I do is put into the spreadsheet only then names and positions of the current scale. so if I was starting with C, Only the notes C D E F G A B would be in the spreadsheet.
2. I then start with the diatonic 7ths for that Key. for each mode, I highlight the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th with a different color, so the root note always has one color, the 3rd another, etc.
3. I practice the arpeggios and the scales found in C Ionian, then F Lydian, B Locrian, E Phrygian, A Aolian, D Dorian, G Mixolydian, with a different spreadsheet colored in for the proper roots, 3rds, 5ths, and 7ths and I listen to the way the sound of the scale changes against those chords depending on the mode.
4. I then do the same thing for the keys of F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G
5. So if I'm working on F next, i'd create 7 spread sheets for F Ionian, Bb Lydian, E Locrian, A Phrygian, D Aolian, G Dorian, C Mixolydian.
By the time I'm done, I have 84 spreadsheets to practice through.
Doing it this way helps reinforce the way jazz progressions work, since most jazz progressions are a series of trips around the circle of 5th. It also helps you hear the difference between, let's say, D Dorian, D Aolian, and D Phrygian even though they are the same D minor 7th chord.
Last edited by Bill McCloskey on 28 Aug 2018 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2018 6:33 am Re: practicing arpeggios
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| Andy Keen wrote: |
| I'm curious if any of you fine players spend time practice arpeggios on a 6th tuning or E13th tuning? I'm particularly interested in using them to help my soloing on western swing. Any tips or links are appreciated. |
Yes I do practice arpeggios and scales. I practice all sorts of chords typically found in jazz, swing and other styles of music.
It's really a matter of learning your fingerboard no matter what tuning you use. The more familiar with your tuning, the better for playing scales and arpeggios.
I just try to see how the patterns interlock on the neck too. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 29 Aug 2018 7:16 am
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After checking out loads of Jazz video content the easiest method I found also recommended by majority of the teachers is learn the Major scale and all their derivative scales are simply starting from a different note in that scale.
This helps to seriously connect the fretboard.
Also D - dorian and G mixolydian, A - aeolian etc are all the same notes as C major scale so why overcomplicate it.
So if for example I am playing any inversion in a 2-5-1 jazz progression the Major scale will fit starting with all different notes being accented. D-G-C.
Or you could change it up using a specified mode for each chord but honestly the singular mode approach and notes really helps. A perfect example of this is Doug Jernigan's Album playing jazz Standards and his tutorial videos. And I would die a happy man if I could do what he does using modes at speed. He rarely plays arpeggios but it sounds awesome.
Even though calls modes every time he changes chords realistically he uses the same major scale starting from a different note for pretty much all of his jazz 2-5 work. Augmented chords he uses the whole note scale and minor he uses the minor or the melodic minor scales.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 29 Aug 2018 7:26 am
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"Also D - dorian and G mixolydian, A - aeolian etc are all the same notes as C major scale so why overcomplicate it. "
Well, the thing about modes is that it tells you both the scale and the chord. There are numerous Dm7 chords. There is only one D Dorian.
D Dorian, D Phrygian, and D Aolian all spell out the same D minor 7th chord, but all have different scales associated with them. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 30 Aug 2018 1:09 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
"... Well, the thing about modes is that it tells you both the scale and the chord. There are numerous Dm7 chords. There is only one D Dorian.
D Dorian, D Phrygian, and D Aolian all spell out the same D minor 7th chord, but all have different scales associated with them. |
I look at that differently as for me Dm7 ( D, F, A, C in different orders.) there is only one with multiple inversions. Any other notes are alterations.
I see it as a Major scale starting from a different note and its up to me to decide what note to start or end on. Eg. Dm7 I may start on the 9th the E and finish on the b3. All depends on the melody but seeing it as one scale means connecting up and down the neck vs learning just shapes and constantly having to switch to different modes.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 30 Aug 2018 6:30 am
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| Great as far as it goes. But what if you see an E sus chord? what scale do you play? If you know your modes, you would immediately recognize this as E Phrygian in the key of C and that an Em7th chord fits beautifully over the E sus. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2018 8:36 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Great as far as it goes. But what if you see an E sus chord? what scale do you play? If you know your modes, you would immediately recognize this as E Phrygian in the key of C and that an Em7th chord fits beautifully over the E sus. |
This would be no different from what Stefan said. The only concern for the suspended chord extension is whether minor or major is implied. You can still use all C diatonic chord and scale tones if the Esus resolves to a key of C chord. If it resolves to an E7 - Amaj change, then your thinking has to adapt to the key change. E Phrygian would be an odd choice there, but could still work.
I think Bill and Stefan are saying basically the same thing, but thinking in C diatonic over the iii chord versus Em Phrygian mode is a type of choice we all make when applying theoretical principles. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2018 9:38 am
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| Guy, that is a great way to practice arpeggios! |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2018 6:20 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Great as far as it goes. But what if you see an E sus chord? what scale do you play? If you know your modes, you would immediately recognize this as E Phrygian in the key of C and that an Em7th chord fits beautifully over the E sus. |
But there is a possible error in the currently popular chord-scale approach:
What if that Esus (assuming sus4) is part of a tune in E major? Then your Em7 chord and E Phrygian mode are incorrect.
The older way to play jazz was chord arpeggio based. If you see "Esus" and you play patterns based on E A B as target notes, you would be correct - but the chords before and after the Esus will tell you the tonal center and what other notes to use or not use.
Of course in another tune, your assumption would work well.
| Fred Treece wrote: |
. The only concern for the suspended chord extension is whether minor or major is implied. You can still use all C diatonic chord and scale tones if the Esus resolves to a key of C chord. If it resolves to an E7 - Amaj change, then your thinking has to adapt to the key change. E Phrygian would be an odd choice there, . |
Exactly so! The context of the tune must be taken into consideration. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 3 Sep 2018 8:05 am
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Here Here.
That E sus is hugely dependent on the context. Which is why I wouldn't simply associate E Phrygian as the one. Target notes would be the idea of where the song is going.
Also in isolation
E sus E, A, B
Can also be seen as a m11th, 6/9 chord, m7b13 the context matters. Not all sus chords are designed to be a derivative of a Major scale.
But anyway 2 different approaches All I need to know is the name. of the parent scale like MAJOR and the names like ionian, Dorian etc are not as important its how its used that is.
I looked at both methods and I'm pretty sure like me knowing the name of each mode and learning it as an entirely different scale name and all is mind boggling and more theoretical than practical.
Example.
What is the name of the 3rd mode of the Harmonic minor scale?
Or what is the name of the 4th mode of the Chromatic Bebop minor scale?
Or harmonic Major scale or Melodic minor scale.
If you honestly don't know each individual mode name instantly good luck learning. I find it way easier learning the Harmonic minor scale and each Scale degree starts from the 2nd or 3rd etc of each scale.
So
Major
Melodic minor
Wholetone
Dimished
Pentatonic etc
You get the idea. One love and will catch up another time.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 3 Sep 2018 1:38 pm
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By this point, most members' eyes have glazed over and there are but a handful still reading but here is an arpeggio exercise that will set those remaining up but it doesn't involve any instrument. I used to give this to classes of musicians of all instruments.
Standing at the bus stop or out in a field, take a note, any note, not too high. From that note sing every inversion of major, minor, augmented and diminished triad. When you can do that, sing every inversion of minor, major, dominant and half-diminished seventh chord. (Diminished 7 is no challenge)
Each chord will be different. So if your note is C, for example, the chords will be root: C, 1st inversion- Ab/C and 2nd inversion F/C. It doesn't matter what the note actually is. You just need to know the sound.
If you can do that, then you can forget all this theory stuff and just play. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 4 Sep 2018 3:24 am
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LOL. True Guy
Playing by Ear is great but takes even longer but is an awesome skill. ie Buddy Emmons but even the great Buddy knew theory, likewise Jernigan the same. Not to sight read or even know all the notes but BOTH legends learnt the scales and memorised shapes. Then connected the shapes together.
They also played based also on interval and relative reference playing as opposed to theory but please realise
when they both say:
shapes = scales
licks = parts of scales
Grips = chords
So I think the players who are not interested in learning theory to even a really basic level because their heroes didn't will be sadly mistaken.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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