Reverb and Delay effects

Alan Murphy · From: N Ireland

Just about everyone uses these effects, I hope this can be an in-depth and possibly advanced discussion on how we can get the best out of our equipment. I have numbered my questions below which might help as a reference for later posters. As well as discussion on these questions please add extra ones, this is such a complex topic !

1. I think of reverb as fast repeats and delay as slower repeats, both decaying away. Some players only use reverb, I use both. Any thoughts as to what is best, and does the venue affect your decision on 1/2 or both ?

2. Over the years I initially used the analog spring reverb as provided in Peavey and Evans amplifiers, then later added the Boss DD3 digital delay pedal, much later I went with a Profex2 for reverb & delay and currently use the Lexicon MPX1 for both effects. Looking back I am not sure which was actually best, musicians talk about reverb as a fine wine, with fully body, lingering tail etc.. However for the delay I tend to hear a pretty non musical doh about half a second after a sharply played single note, and that for me is good to go. The reverb is backed off from where it doesnâ€™t sound like playing in a cave â€“ all not very scientific ! Does anyone use temporary delay settings to allow the sound quality / tone to be optimally adjusted ?

3. Some reverbs â€“ such as Hall have a length of hall setting â€“ does anyone adjust this depending on the venue, if so can you hear a difference ?

4. What is the best reverb type to use for Pedal Steel, is there any types (Hall, Plate etc) which must be avoided ?

5. Shaping the reverb and delay tail seems to be critical, how is this best achieved ?

6. Inserting filters in the feedback loop seems important, what type of filter do you find best, and what is the optimum cut-off frequency ?

7. I realise top class studio delay / reverb units can be the price of a small house, could we hear the difference, would we really know what to look for ? I believe the Benado (PF-Steel Dream) is an analog/digital combination unit, does that provide advantages over an all digital unit ?

8. When using independent reverb and delay effects â€“ what order of hookup do you find is best ?

9. Do you use tap tempo delay during normal playing, or even for a special recording / instrumental ?

10. Do you change settings between fast / slow songs, and what settings do you find most important ?

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Are you referring to studio or live performances?

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I used to use both reverb and delay. Now I just use reverb, either the amp's reverb or a simple EH Holy Grail Nano. It has one knob.

I also carry a delay unit to add just a touch of delay when playing outdoors. The idea is to emulate the reflection of the sound off of a wall...that isn't there.

Alan Murphy · From: N Ireland

Hi Lee,

Mainly thinking of live performances, most players I know seem to set and forget, due to the filter typically inserted in the feedback path I usually also hear a tone change.

Skip Ellis · From: Bradenton, Fl USA

Been using a cheapo Behringer DR400 (pretty much same as RV-3) for years. Recently tried a HOF Mini which was good but I missed having a tiny bit of delay. Now using an Earthquake Devices Dispatch Master and am happy with it. It lets you dial back to a single slapback repeat and vary the mix along with the depth of reverb. I don't pay any attention to numbers (ms, etc) I just turn the knob until I get the sound I like and leave it there. I do tend to deepen the reverb on ballads when I'm playing steel.
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Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

Everything I know about effects I learned by reading here on the Forum and trying different things. So for what it's worth here's what I've settled on. A very short delay, just one repeat that you can hardly hear, really fattens up my tone. Then on reverb I use a long pre-delay setting that let's the picked strings stay out front and not get lost in a wash of reverb, but I still get a nice reverb effect.

I use a Zoom MS-70 CDR. And if I ever play outdoors the Zoom will let me add another delay for the "bounce off the wall" effect.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Respectfully, the initial definitions of reverb and delay are incorrect. They're not simply different speed effects and need to be discussed separately. The organization of the technical discussion that is laid out in the OP is based on a false premise.

"Delay" is technically very simple, but the method of generation is critical )analog v digital, and method of achieving each). The analog vs digital is the first decision vector that needs to be fine-tuned, then you can get into speed of repeats, length of tail...and "filter" encompasses dozens of possibilities, so some sort of limit on which filters you want to discuss should probably be made or there will be side discussions covering frequencies, phasing, distortion etc etc etc....

Reverb is much more complicated, with different types sounding radically different (outboard spring vs combo spring plus length os springs...and number....and driver...and recovery system - tube types or solid state OR digital for each - ...and recovery gain level AND method) and so on

It's just not practical to try to relate them so closely.

here's just one reference piece:

https://www.behindthemixer.com/reverb-or-delay-do-you-know-difference/
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

sometimes we can get way to deep in the topic . Its not brain science.

If you have amp reverb, use it. More often than not nobody cares, just add some reverb . Not like you are in a Sardine can, but rather a small amount will do. The type of reverb is not important but rather how does it sound to your ears. Is it too much , too little or just right.

regarding delay, it's a nice ADD if used minimally.

perhaps a single slap (one delay) at 275 or 300 MS with a slight mix, 15% or so. Again, you can hear it but it is not in your face but rather more of a slight addition.

Keep your rig as simple as possible. It will make your life much easier and way more consistent.

Don't get wrapped up in all the details , right now it's about HOW DOES IT SOUND .
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

This is a handy way to handle reverb and delay and maybe a wee bit of chorus in a neat little package.

Fred Rogan · From: Birmingham, AL USA

Alan, I understand what you are asking but I also agree that it is a complicated issue and one that is too dependent on personal taste. I hear guys who have delay settings all over the map.
Reverb\delay was the most tweaked aspect of my rig. However,in the last year I have settled down a bit after I got a Boss RV-6. It has a setting that is reverb + delay and both sound very good to my ears. Check it out.
Good luck in your quest!
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

What kind of reverb unit to use and how to set it is way too subjective to try and get a consensus. People like what they like, and often, they like different things. My take (as Tony said) is to keep it simple and don't sweat the details. Different venues may require different types and setting to please you, but 98% of the audience won't notice. To me, settings like "length of hall" are meaningless because other things (drapes, partial carpeting, ceiling type and height, number of people in the hall, type of stage) are just as important. In the end, all you're talking about is more or less of something or other.

I'm not a "gear-head", so on recommendation of one of the other forum members, I bought a little TC Arena Reverb pedal. It was around $100, and has room, hall, spring, plate, church, mod, royal, parlor, pas, and seas reverbs, as well as tone, decay, and pre-delay adjustments. I was happy with it, and it does everything I'd ever need. But some may want more, so they can go ahead and spend $500 for a Strymon Big Sky and get all the extra "whoopie-wow" knobs.

So, in the end, it's whatever trips your trigger. But for me "good enough" is good enough. I'm not Paul Franklin and I don't do this stuff for a living, so I just spin the knobs until I find something that sounds decent, and then just go on and play.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

With regard to reverb...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I agree completely with what Tony said. I was replying to Alan's original pot, which is a technical/analytical discussion, not a simple "what reverb or delay do you like" post.

The latter is different subject matter.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Alan Murphy · From: N Ireland

Hi all, Thanks for the feedback so far, yes I would like this to get as technical as we can all handle !

I see similar but different settings on the forum for my Lexicon MPX1 from Buddy Emmons, John Hughey, and Randy Beavers which make me think the top pro's have spent a lot of time really understanding these effects.

Jim I hoped you would join in, a good link where comments suggest a single delay repeat and the reverb follows the delayed signal. So are we in agreement for question 8 that delay should normally preceed the reverb in the signal chain ?

I do currently have a single delay repeat, but back few years ago when I used a DD3 I had the feedback set where I got a much reduced volume second repeat (I now think that was probably not ideal and the second repeat muddied the sound)

Do you think a delayed signal which is typically 200mS after the initial signal, allows the initial note to sound cleanly before the delayed signal mixes with the initial note and creates a thicker livelier sound which most players prefer ?

For a given venue, low frequencies do not reflect as much as higher frequencies, so do you think this is the main reason we have a high pass filter in the feedback loop to block these low frequencies which are not naturally reflected ?

I am also thinking this loss of reflected low frequencies is why adding delay / reverb effects tends to make my tone sound slightly sharper.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I like a delay with a tap tempo, so that the echoes are in sync with the music. I use a Strymon DIG or a Neunabor Echelon - they both sound good to me. The DIG is more versatile because you can mix the tapped tempo with a division of it.

I used to play with a drummer who used a MIDI metronome. We ran a MIDI cable from that into my Lexicon M-100 and the echo was always in perfect sync.

I usually set the delay to 1 or 2 repeats, and not very loud.

I use a touch of amp reverb, too. I don't use the delay on every song, but the amp reverb is always there.
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Alan Murphy · From: N Ireland

Hi Bob,
Sounds like a really nice way to get a midi sync for the tap tempo from your drummer, trying to tap a button at the start of a song just does not seem very practical. I think there are some beat analysers around which might give the required sync signal and be another option.

How would you describe your improvment in sound with synchronised delay ?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I like synced delay best on swing tunes or rockabilly, with the delay set to 2/3 of the quarter note tap tempo. It adds depth on the slower tunes, excitement on fast tunes. It feels like there's an invisible player swinging along with me.

On rock tunes I set it to 1/2 of the tempo (8th notes). It adds a stadium-like quality.

I tap the tempo with my hand. It's not perfect but it really doesn't have to be.

I don't mess with tone of the echo. I like a clean, accurate digital echo tone, not the analog chorus sound that degrades as it decays. Other people have different tastes, which is okay by me. A guitarist I play with is the polar opposite in his delay approach. He's analog and stereo; I'm digital and mono. He keeps his delay time at one setting; I change it with every tune. He wants the delay darker than his guitar signal; I want it to sound just like my guitar.
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I use delay all the time but it's just what's called a "slap back" delay. Just a real quick, single delay.
And as Alan mentioned, I use either a Boss DD2 or a DD3 delay unit. I think that is what Buddy Emmons used.
Erv

Alan Murphy · From: N Ireland

Bob,
Very interesting that you use the tap tempo for live situations, I will definently be giving it a try.

Can you describe in words how you hear the sound differ between synchronised and non synchronised delay ?

Is anyone else using tap tempo either in live or recording work with Pedal Steel ?

Erv,
I think the DD3 is a great pedal, unfortunatly mine ended up with a very badly cracked board and so far I have been unable to fix it. I think I saw Buddy with one a few years ago, and Sarah Jory also really liked it.

Buddy's MPX1 settings (off his site):

"...the three settings I use on my MPX1 are mono and only one of them is reverb, and it's set for moderate to up tempos. Here goes for the reverb:

Reverb type - Hall
RVB Mix - 22% Level - + 1db
RVB Size - 52.0M Link - on
RVB Diff - 80% P Dly - 25ms
RVB Bass - 1.5x Decay - 1.30s
RVB X Ovr - 818 Rt HC 14.1K
RVB Shape - 88 Spred - 87

The ballad delay is:
Delay mix - 15% Level - 0 db
Delay time - 2:1 Feedback - +14%
Delay damp - 3%

My third delay is a sped up version of the above to keep from having to tap my way back to the two ballpark settings from song to song.

Jim,
I think you have suggested in this and other posts that analog delay / reverb or the single digital pedals can be quite different from the combination digital multi effects as provided by Lexicon/Digitech/Zoom/Profex etc..

I am going to add two more questions to hopefully develop this part of the discussion.

Question 11: What ANALOG delay or reverb do you think provides a better effect than the typical multi effects listed above ?

Question 12: What TUBE delay or reverb do you think works better with a tube preamp (I use a tube preamp with the MPX1 in a parallel loop) ?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Kevin Mincke · From: Farmington, MN (Twin Cities-South Metro) USA

I've been playing since the 70's and my sound has always consisted of reverb from the amp preferred (Twin Reverb/Webb/Randall Steel Man) along with a delay pedal, which have been many. I had a Boss DM2 and of course had to have the latest and greatest and have stuck with my early 80's DM3. While I don't do much tap tempo, I prefer just the 275-300 ms slap back. On occasion if Im doing Pink Floyd (think comfortably numb) with BossTone I'll use a long delay. I use a variety of pedals as I don't always do classic country, but as pointed reverb & delay are two separate effects or nuances.

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