Clean Highs Dilemma

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I don't know how you guys do it. I've been playing for nearly 40 yrs. and still can't get a satisfactory result. They seem to be brittle, biting and/or thin up there.

I play pretty well, but this is something I've never been able to get down properly and it's maybe the one aspect that made me want to play pedal steel most. I remain disappointed and frustrated.

I'll give you an example. Here is JD Call from one of my most favorite music lp's of all time, PPL's Two Lane Highway, the title cut and the cut of Sister's Keeper. Hear how clean yet full of body this is up high 3rd string on the upper frets. Actually this whole album has many examples of what I'm talking about as do all of my heroes in the pure country realm as well.

I give up. I guess I'm the only one that struggles with this as every time I post about it, no one else seems to be troubled with the malady. Sometimes I feel so inadequate like maybe I should have stuck with the kazoo. Oh Well

sister's keeper ...about 1:20
two lane highway ...just after the piano solo at about 2:00

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I'm not an authority in this matter, as I've struggled with this issue as well. However, recently I feel like I've made some progress.

First: Make sure the tops of your changer fingers are smooth and don't have any grooves.

Second: Use relatively fresh stings.

Third: Pick with authority. Back off the volume pedal as necessary, but don't whimp out with your right hand. Do the opposite of what your brain tells you to do. Don't get timid when playing high. Really pluck the strings forcefully.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Dave Morrison · From: Whbg Ohio Usa

Hey Jerry I just sent John a text to see what gear he was using on that album.I'm pretty sure he was using a Sho Bud Pro 111 around that time and most likely a Fender amp.I'll let you know what he says.For what its worth though I've been fighting the same thing for a long while.Does it seem to be the same no matter what guitar you're playing?

.

Dave Morrison · From: Whbg Ohio Usa

Ok Jerry John just text me back and said it was indeed his Sho Bud Pro 111 going straight into a Neve console.Original single coil pickups.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Thanks fellas. Yeah, I have studied technique a bunch. Went to Jeffran, worked on both right and left hand technique religiously. Have a good strong pick attack.

No matter what guitar or gear I've used I'm just not happy with my result. Admittedly, I do like and tend to favor the more mellow lower end and strings, but that may be due to my dissatisfaction elsewhere up higher.

I get compliments on my tone and delivery often enough, I'm just not satisfying myself.

Yes, I think John played a Sho-Bud.
He also is a quite capable professional player. I've always admired his playing and his work on this lp is one of the reasons I took up the instrument.

I've played a dozen or so different pedal steels from PP Emmons, Zums, Derby, PRP Mullen etc. and currently playing an MCI RangExpander and always concentrated on good amps and electronics. I have a couple of MosValve stereo rigs and a John LeMay NV400, so it's no fault of my instruments or electronic gear, unless I'm just not eq'ing it properly.

It's just somewhere in my technique that I'm breaking down I guess.

I've studied my bar hand and fingers behind the bar etc. just something I'm missing.

I know that there is a little magic that happens in studio recordings, but I hear other fine players getting the desired results live as well.

I guess I'm a little better than when I started 40 yrs. ago. One of my old friends from the 70's came to a gig I was doing. He said, "you've improved." We've always passed good natured jabs at each other, but I'm not quite sure what to make of that one.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Thanks Dave. My best to John.

Kevin Fix · From: Michigan, USA

My best amp settings for lower end and over the 12th fret. These settings are for my NV112's. , Low +9, Mid -9, Shift between 12:00 and 1:00, High +9, Presence -15, Reverb 3 or 4, Master Gain Wide Open, Pre Gain set to taste or volume you need. I also use a Hilton Delay with only one repeat. I may add more Reverb depending on indoors or outdoors or acoustics. For C6 my Low setting is about +3. My other settings stay the same. My guitar a Sho Bud Super Pro with Bud PUP's and metal necks. Hope this helps Jerry.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

I hesitate to respond when it comes to picking techniques, but when I want high notes to sound round and warm I pick at/near chime position for an octave higher, without chiming. I do use very narrow-tipped straight finger-picks that don't slide on but rather snap the strings, which works fine, but the almost as narrow old blue herco thumbpick creates the roundest/warmest single-pick sound up high on 3d string for me. If I want even less (hardly any) attack-sound – just a round sinusoidal tone, I lift/snap single strings between thumbpick and middlefinger pick, which works for me because I use straight picks.

The right position to pick for a specific sound, is somewhere between the bridge/changer and the bar. In my experience all too many players who are unhappy with the sound they get, are not utilizing this entire picking-range in their search for sounds.

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

The amp...the mic...the mic placement...the recording medium...the post production...the mastering process: all are important to the tone we hear on a record.

Also, what guitar, amp and effects did the player use? Still, the recording/mastering process adds compression and very specifically tailored methods to create the sounds we hear on a recording.

But, I totally understand your pain/quest. All tone is suffering.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer

Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Yeah, don't be disappointed if you do not sound like the record because the recordings you hear on records are doctored..rather go by what you hear the pro's do in live settings..Jeff Newman once said that steels don't sound good above the 17 fret..its like playing a 8 inch wire.

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

I hear that full,round sound too,and I heard PPL at Mile High Stadium once long ago,opening for the Eagles.Had it there too...But it occurs to me that in the studio and live at that show,PPL had some top-of-the-line EQ going on,so they coulda had some help most of us don't get much access to.

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Been using these ever since they were available. Before that, the old National "greenies".

BJS, George L's, Sho-Bud bars, Passive and active Goodrich volume pedals, GL's cables and strings.

My issue is not the style or quality of my equipment, it lies somewhere in my employment of same.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Have you tried using heavier strings? I believe Paul Franklin uses a .012 for his third, and a .015 for his fourth. If you can handle the increase in pedal pressure, that would probably move the tone in the direction you are seeking.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Regarding eq-settings, etc: a PSG does not produce any real high fundamental frequencies – it is all in the mid to low range.
3d string w/bar at fret 24 w/no pedals, is 830Hz. So those who dip the mids in the 500 to 800Hz range, will inevitable reduce the warmth in tones produced on high strings above fret 15.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Franklin · Posted 1 Jun 2018 9:35 am

Hi Jerry,

Key Tonal Issues when seeking tones from yesteryear

.....They used basic Volume pot pedals which do not boost the highs. And the volume pedal brands they used had nothing added to color the guitars tone....D'Addario cables are as close to the old cables they made back when and they do not brighten the tone like the George L's and Bill Lawrence cables will and Monster cables are too muddy......Tube Amps being mic'ed more towards the paper not the cone is how you should mic'...Overall that is an analog recording, no digital gear.....Its most likely a wood neck guitar (Sho-Bud?)....All of those things matter towards what you seek...Plus he is picking with the thumb around the 19th fret as I do when going up the fretboard. Those old single coil pickups were 18,000 to 20,000 ohms and are part of what you hear. Take the solid state and the digital gear out of your chain if you want that type of tone which is totally analog.....The speakers were most likely 12" stock fenders or JBL's or Eminence speakers. Two speakers warm the highs whereas a single 15" brightens them and all light weight speakers some steelers are gravitating towards add a digital touch and brighten the tone. So either add or take away elements until you find the combination that takes you there....But tone is a journey....Learning what gear does tonally before plugging in helps.....This is a brief analysis of what may be going on.

Avoid plugging in gear that undoes the tonality of other pieces in the chain....Add them one at a time and bypass them to see how the guitar sounds compared to plugging straight from guitar to VP to amp..... This process will help you hear which gear you use that is actually diminishing the sound of the guitar before a note is played.....

Basically we all seek different tones. Players have to their the gear wisely. Just because someone says it does doesn't mean it does....Let your ears, not your eyes decide what you like.....
Paul

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

The first thing I'd try is picking further away from the bridge.
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:

Bobby Nelson · From: North Carolina, USA

This is a good place to talk about something that I've been wondering about - John Hughey's tone. His E9 tone always seemed a little shrill to me, and I always wondered if that was because he liked to stay in Hugheyland so much. I suppose he would be the benchmark of high playing. I heard a term, "push/pull growl", and I think his tone is an example of that - but, I don't really know.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Nice & informative commentary by PF. Much appreciated.

Kevin Fix · From: Michigan, USA

Like Paul says, "Let your ears decide, not your eyes." I agree 100%. I am going from my guitar to Hilton volume pedal, to Hilton Delay, to NV112. Once in a while a Dobro sim and that's it. To much gear is a pain in the ass. Makes tone complicated sometimes.

Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

I heard a lot of people say they hate the steel because of its high shrill pitch of the E9th tuning when played in the higher frets...although some people like that high sound most people in my area hate it.. David Hartley from England seems to be able to play very high and it still sounds great to me...

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

Who am I too make any kind of comments on this subject but I am going to add my 2 cents anyway. I saw Papa John do his thing many times. But I do not think he used any boxes? Guitar to pedal, pedal to amp. It was in his hands and his ears. He knew what he wanted the sound to be and so his hands did it. He was a Super Picker and a very fine Gentleman. I miss seeing him, J.R. Rose
_________________
NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose

Forum Index > Steel Players	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic