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Topic: Molded steel guitar bodies |
Steven Black
From:
Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 7:29 am |
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| I am looking for comments or Ideas on Molded steel guitar bodies which include the neck and the head stock and endplates, what type of sound would this guitar have? would it have cabinet drop?, would the tone be very smooth on a guitar like this?. |
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Andy Greatrix
From:
Edmonton Alberta
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 8:43 am
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| It depends on the material. I don't know if you can melt aluminum, pour it into a mold in such away that the metal would retain its' temper. It would probably be very heavy. What alloy would you use? Would you use graphite and carbon fibers? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 10:32 am
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One-piece molded units are often prone to breakage and are difficult to repair, I think that's why we haven't seen very many of them. Consider the bakelite Rickenbackers. Dozens were probably scrapped due to the necks breaking off. On a standard pedal steel guitar, a crack around the threaded leg hole is not a big deal. It's easily repaired or the end plate can be replaced. With a one-piece body, if you can't do a suitable repair, the only other choice is complete and total disassembly and rebuilding with a new body.
That's neither a pleasant thought, nor a practical instrument, to me.  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 13 November 2005 at 10:33 AM.] |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 10:56 am
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| Would you buy a molded violin? Forget it. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 13 November 2005 at 10:56 AM.] |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 10:58 am
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I would think a stamped/welded (not molded) steel would be workable. My Ric 59 is made that way, and it would seem to be a vert viable steel manufacturing system, with tons of advantages with preset holes for various knee lever options and things like that.
The Ric is stuffed with cotton rags to keep it from feeding back due to sympathetic resonation. You'd need to consider some kind of similar "stuffing". I think it's a great idea, though - the Ric sounds incredible, and it'd be a pedal steel with a unique tone and tons of sustain. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 11:11 am
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| Aren't the MSA Milleniums "molded" from carbon fiber resin? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Nov 2005 1:17 pm
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Well, yes Bobby, but the endplates, tuning heads, necks, and the changer housings, are all separate parts. If you re-read Steven's post, he's inquiring about integrating all those parts into one casting.
Now, the sonic benefits would probably be nil, but it might be a way for an off-shore manufacturer to finally get a playable pedal steel in the low-priced ($200-$300) category. I'm convinced it could be done in a country like China.
[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 13 November 2005 at 01:18 PM.] |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 15 Nov 2005 11:36 am
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Properly engineered carbon fiber has proven to have an amazing strength-to-weight ratio.
I am most familiar with its application in racing bicycle frames and components. It is becoming the dominant material on the pro racing circuit. When you think of the recently retired Lance Armstrong, riding at a weight of about 165 lbs. and applying tremendous torsion and stress to a bike that all told weighs about 16 lbs., it's a pretty amazing engineering feat.
I believe we will see more of this material in the steel guitar world in the future.
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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 15 November 2005 at 11:37 AM.] [This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 15 November 2005 at 11:37 AM.] [This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 15 November 2005 at 11:38 AM.] |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 15 Nov 2005 11:50 am
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| Before Sierra went bankrupt and then was resurrected, they were working with a well known graphite design company to do just that. The photos that I saw integrated the neck, body, keyhead, and endplates into one unit. |
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GARYPHILLIPS
From:
SOMERSET, OHIO ,PERRY
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Posted 15 Nov 2005 4:05 pm
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do you think it would sound good in black 
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Gary Phillips
JUST-N-CASE PLUS
D-10 8/5 Desert Rose Steel Guitar
& D-10 8/5 Rains Steel Guitar
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2005 1:54 pm
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I do not think a metal one-piece body would be advisable. As I recall, the old "Multi-Kord"(??SP??) had a cast metal body. I owned one and it was very prone to change pitch with temperature change.
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www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar
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Steven Black
From:
Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2005 6:03 pm
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| Hello John, there is a metal steel guitar called the skeletal steel guitar by lone star steels, but it is not a molded one piece steel, they say it plays great and can be ordered in a single 12 with 7 and 4, and he is doing a double 10 version 8 and 5. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 16 Nov 2005 6:32 pm
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| I seem to remember Reece commenting on the astronomical price of having a mold made. For an instrument of relatively low sales potential (compared to regular guitars or keyboards etc.) even though it could probably be a low-cost psg built in China as mentioned, who'd be willing to pay a huge price for the mold for such limited sales coupled with a low selling price per unit? It'd take years to recoup the cost of the mold, if ever. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 16 November 2005 at 06:34 PM.] |
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Steven Black
From:
Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2005 5:36 am
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| Well, lots of responses, maybe someday they will re-introduce the molded guitar, I do not know if I would classify the MSA Millinium a molded guitar, I guess you can say it is half molded, but carbon fiber is laid out by hand with sheets of fiber in a mold or it is laid out by machine into a mold, but the rest of the guitar like the metal work are done by casting or machining. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Nov 2005 12:15 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...who'd be willing to pay a huge price for the mold for such limited sales coupled with a low selling price per unit? |
Maybe the Chinese! You've got to remember that a mold that would cost tens of thousands of dollars here in the States could probably be made in China for a few hundred dollars. Witness...the inexpensive guitars they build. No, they're not in Gibson, Martin or Fender class, but when you can make a decent, playable guitar, ship it 6,000 miles, and then have it retail here for around $100, you begin to see what 25 cents-per-hour Chinese labor can do in comparison to the $10-$20 per hour labor here. If said Chinese guitar retails here for $100, their actual manufacturing cost is probably no more than $20-$30. As to the small market...who knows? We've never had a pedal steel available for under about $500-$600, in today's money. At half that (or less), the number of new purchasers might increase significantly! 
I'm convinced that if a U.S. company like Carter can build one and sell it for $700, the Chinese could easily do it for $200.
[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 23 November 2005 at 12:16 PM.] |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Nov 2005 1:29 pm
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| I'm convinced that if a U.S. company like Carter can build one and sell it for $700, the Chinese could easily do it for $200. |
$700 is the "street" price. Dealers obviously pay us less than that and there are NO direct sales of Carter-Starters from us.
I seriously doubt they could do it "easily". If you think so you need to reevaluate your assumptions. Molded steel guitars would be more expensive than a traditional steel even for the Chinese. And, providing user support would be interesting since few music stores seem to have the necessary expertise.
And my comments just skim the surface regarding the "offshoring" of pedal steel guitar manufacturing.
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John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com
www.magnumsteelguitars.com
[This message was edited by John Fabian on 23 November 2005 at 01:29 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Nov 2005 3:45 pm
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| I seriously doubt they could do it "easily". |
John, "easily" is a relative term. I'm not a businessman, and I don't know a fraction of what you do about building pedal steels. On the other hand, I know more than a little about the Chinese people, and it might be unwise for you (or anyone else) to underestimate the Chinese nation. I'm sure you recall that only a few decades ago that most General Motors executives seriously doubted the Japanese would ever be a threat to the U.S. automotive industry. And now? Well, let's just say it's obvious that those executives underestimated their competition.
Businessmen often do that.
Me? Well, I can guarantee you that I will never underestimate the Chinese. Like I said, I'm not a businessman. |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 2:49 am
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As Donny said, chinese guitars are not in the Gibson/Fender class. They are usually a bit better finished, only let down by plasticky lacquer and sometimes maybe a little too cheap hardware.
(My ´80 Fender Tele was the worst made guitar I've ever seen, really sloppy in every way. My ´94 Gibson J200 came with unpolished frets, rough file marks on the fretboard and lacquer that started lifting around the binding and soundhole after a few months).
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´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Peavey Nashville 1000
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 6:19 am
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| Quote: |
| Would you buy a molded violin? |
There's been a tremendous amout of research done on what makes certain violins sound good, and I think that it's inevitable that it will start to be applied. Given the difficulty in finding really tight-grained old wood, and the success that Ovation has had with molded guitars, it's bound to happen as soon as us stupid old traditionalists die off. Tradition is the only thing keeping certain trends going - the idea that Stradivarius and Guarini made the only perfect-sounding violins or that the Les Paul and Stratocaster are the only really-good sounding guitars is fading into the mists. |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 7:46 am
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Donny,
As both a businessman and an engineer, I am well aware of the capabilities of the Chinese manufacturers (as well as Singaporeans, Malaysian, Korean and Japanese). I rarely underestimate anyone's capabilities, especially theirs. The fact is that the market is just not large enough to justify their entry at this point in time. If it was or was going to be, you would see the majors (like Fender, Gibson, Peavey, etc.) jumping into it right now. Making a lower cost pedal steel in and of itself will not grow the market large enough or fast enough to justify their entry (they like LARGE markets).
We continue to monitor and look at how China will fit into the steel guitar industry.
China has the expertise and capability to do many things but in the end they are looking to develop and manufacture products for markets valued in the tens, hundreds, and thousands of million of dollars. Our little cottage industry isn't even blip on their radar screen, YET.
Manufacturing capability and pricing are just a piece of the puzzle not the complete solution.
You seem to think that the steel guitar market is price driven. It is true lower prices would increase the number of steel players but without the auxilliary support functions (and they are costly) the market growth would still be much slower than you seem to think it would be.
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John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com
www.magnumsteelguitars.com
[This message was edited by John Fabian on 24 November 2005 at 07:47 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 12:17 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...providing user support would be interesting since few music stores seem to have the necessary expertise. |
User support? From power tools to VCR's, nothing else I buy that's made in China comes with practical "user support". Why would I expect it from a Chinese steel guitar manufacturer? Nowadays, we're lucky if most salespeople can formulate an intelligible sentence, so relying on the stores for help with problems (with very few exceptions), is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
Anyhow, I think you overlook the fact that the best "user support" for steel guitar (and most every other product) is already available to most people 24/7, 365 days a year, for all brands.
And...it's practically free, to both manufacturers and consumers.
Welcome to the internet! |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 1:29 pm
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| Why would I expect it from a Chinese steel guitar manufacturer? Nowadays, we're lucky if most salespeople can formulate an intelligible sentence, so relying on the stores for help with problems (with very few exceptions), is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. |
That may be true for you but most people still expect to be able to get their questions answered in person or on the phone.
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| Anyhow, I think you overlook the fact that the best "user support" for steel guitar (and most every other product) is already available to most people 24/7, 365 days a year, for all brands. |
Handling support questions by email is extremely time consuming and inefficient compared to the phone or face-to-face. As technology progresses and 2-way video becomes more widely used, internet support will become more effective.
And, while user forums like this one can be extremely helpful, they can also allow the propogation of opinion masquerading as fact as well as misinformation by pseudo-experts.
[This message was edited by John Fabian on 24 November 2005 at 01:51 PM.] |
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Steven Black
From:
Gahanna, Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 2:13 pm
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| Well I agree with Donny, that we can not underestimate the chinese in their quest to be excellent capitalists, I had some Chinese friends here in the states who are in college majoring in business and have taken a serious interest in my Double 10 steel guitar and are wanting to learn more of how they are made, but I am not eager to jump to explaining the mechanics about it to them, so they say they will look to buy one to investigate on their own, they have studied the lap steel guitar, so who knows. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Nov 2005 3:27 pm
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While the Chinese are certainly capable of making a low cost steel, I tend to agree with John that there is probably not enough of a market to make it worth their while.
It has been said that there are only between 15 and 20,000 pedal steel players workdwide, and of course most of us already have our instruments and are not in the market for another.
John, since you are far more inforned about this than the rest of us, without giving away any information you deem inappropriate, how many new pedal steel guitars in total do yuu estimate are sold every year? |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 25 Nov 2005 4:22 am
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| Seems like there's already a good solution, with extruded metal bodies. Steel beams are extruded, and gain strength from that process. |
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