Replace on / off stomp box switch?

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I want to replace a couple stomp box switches with silent switches. The clicking sound is a very real problem when I work with acoustic instruments. Would some sort of toggle switch work ? I use my hands to work them anyway. The pedals that need switching are an earth drive and a Lovepedal eternity overdrive.
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Bob

Bill A. Moore · From: Silver City, New Mexico, USA

Most of my pedals are Boss, which use a momentary switch. I have contemplated adding an 1/8" jack parallel with the pedal switch, and having the option of remote, (hand operated) switching.
(No, like many other things, I've got no "round tuit" yet!)

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Bob--silent switching, as far as I've ever seen, is far more than just the switch--the switch activates a switching circuit. So we're not talking about just changing out switches. However, when I built a bypass looper I opted for toggles rather than stomp buttons for various reasons including hand-friendly operation and quieter, easier operation. The toggles are available in the same 3PDT as true bypass stomp switches. If you need, I'll try to figure out where I got my switches.
Also note that I've read here that Brad configured an ED for someone with a toggle so he's the one to ask re: sourcing the switch.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I replaced all of my stomp box push button switches with toggles. They set on a stand to my right side and easy to turn off and on by hand. I pull back on my volume pedal when switching. Our lead player uses a volume pedal and engages/disengages the same way.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Many years ago I was visiting with a "Winter Texan" steel guitarist. I believe he was from Canada. I asked him about a little box he had stuck on the top deck of his guitar. It was right in front of his right pinky finger. It had what appeared to be the head of a bolt on top. There was a small cable attached to the box.

He showed me how he had designed a switch that would turn his chorus unit off and on. All he had to do was touch the head of the bolt. It worked like those lamps that you just touch to turn on and off.

Pretty slick, and it was noiseless.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

clap on, clap off! Very Happy

Find one of those touch sensitive table lamps and gut it into a metal project box.
I also use a homemade bypass switch box to bypass all stomp boxes to keep from dulling my tone. Works well and I can leave one or more of my effects in the on position, flip the bypass switch and can have multiple effects on or off with one toggle.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

ajm · From: Los Angeles

OK, just remember, you made the mistake of asking. This is going to be a long post.

This deals with a footswitch solution. If you are happy with the hand operated toggle switch solutions presented, then go with those.

I have been toying around with this subject for the past couple of months.

The lead in back story (bear with me here)......

I use what most would consider a boat load of pedals with 6 string. It's just for the home, I don't gig with all of these. Hooking up that many pedals can lead to problems, regardless of if they are true bypass (TBP) or FET switched or even a combination. If you go to Youtube, Brian Wampler has a video of a very extreme example of what can happen to your tone when you hook up about a dozen Boss pedals. I can personally verify that it can happen with even a single pedal if you have a "problem child" pedal (like an old Boss PN-2 trem/pan).

As a result, over time, I now have about 8 pedals of various switching types in front of the amp, and 5 in the effects loop. To get rid of any degradation that the pedals may have on the tone when they are not being used I use TBP loop switch boxes. The one in front of the amp is 8 loops, the one in the effects loop of the amp is 5 loops. There are several manufacturers of these: Road Rage, Loopmaster, One Control, Mammoth Electronics (remember that name), etc. If you prowl the web and do some searches there are probably many more.

If you have a teeny bit of electronics skill you can make your own. The main key component is a 3PDT stomp switch, along with some LEDs, jacks, and the enclosure. However, instead of buying the parts here and there, if you want to build it yourself I believe that Loopmaster and Mammoth both offer a kit with all of the parts. I priced it out, and you can't gather up the parts any cheaper on your own, especially when you factor in your time spent.

I have bought a couple of these TBP switchers off of Craigslist used, but on one of them in particular the girls told me up front that some of the switches did not work. I got it so cheap that it was basically the cost of the enclosure and other parts, and I ended up replacing all of the 3PDT stomps. There are several sources for parts, but maybe the most one stop shop is Small Bear.

OK, yeah I can hear you.......SHUT UP and answer the original question.......

Well, at some point the CA-CHUNK of the 3PDT TBP MECHANICAL switcher stomps became mildly annoying. I started wondering if there was a more silent alternative out there for the 3PDT switches, if anyone has schematics if you want to do your own, etc etc etc.

Yes.

There are schematics out there, as someone else out there asked this question long before I did. However, I don't get a comfy feeling from some of them, they are hard to follow, they are obsolete, etc.

In short, all of these use a relay to do the switching, use a silent push/stomp switch, and use a minimal amount of electronic circuitry to marry the two. So yes, it does require power (9 VDC). Note that if you lose power to these, it *should* revert to bypass mode (user, a.k.a you to verify).

What I have been working on is a design of my own. I think that I have a design that is not perfect, but it is workable and does not have the mechanical CA-CHUNK. I have bread boarded it and it works. However, the next step is putting it on perf board and getting it small enough to fit in one of the TBP loop enclosures that I already have. If you were a serious do it your selfer you could do a home made PC board.

So what if you don't want to build or design your own? Glad you asked. There are several companies out there that sell a "kit" to replace a 3PDT switch. I have done a lot of internet prowling and stalking on this. Several of these companies are outside of the USA, not that that matters.

However, there are a few that are in the USA.

Mammoth Electronics makes an all in one kit that has everything. Switch, pre-assembled board, the works. It is on their web site, and it is in the $20 range. It can go in your own design, OR it can go inside of a pedal (you will need to modify the pedal, and there will need to be enough room in the pedal). There is about a 4 minute video on Youtube showing them doing this.

So what if you don't want to modify your favorite and/or vintage pedal? IMO a better way to go is to put one in your own TBP box external to the pedal.

So what if you're not electronics handy? They also offer either a 3 loop or a 5 loop TBP switcher. AND if you are a handy type of guy/gal, they also offer (drum roll).....A KIT.

Yes, there are a couple of down sides (you knew there would be).
I believe that they are out of stock on these switch modules. Last time I checked they have the piece parts, but were in the process of assembling and packaging. They may have them for purchase by now.
Also, this design uses a circuit that mutes the signal for a very short period of time when switching in/out to get rid of that switch "pop" that you get with mechanical switches. I have heard that it's on the order of 30 msec, but don't quote me on that. Cruising the web, some guys have complained about this (naturally), and some say it's no big deal. I believe that in the instructions they tell how you can defeat this. In my design that uses a relay there is no muting, and the electronic "pop" is no worse than a mechanical switch, and in fact may be even better. But, YMMV.

There are a couple of other companies that also offer these "kits" or "modules". I don't have the list in front of me, but the other one that pops into mind is Monte Allums. I contacted him about the TBP switcher box thingy, and he said that it should work but he hasn't actually done it. His kit will be a little more, because he does not include a silent stomp switch. So total cost with him will be about $25 for the module and a stomp switch.

I may post back if I can find the list for a couple of other sources.

My short term goal is to get a couple of these modules from the various sources, take my own design, and put them in a TBP switcher strip. That way I can compare them side by side and see how they all stack up. This is obviously first and foremost for my own amusement.

So what if you're not cheap/frugal/thrifty, money is no object, and so on?

Build Your Own Clone (BYOC) has an 8 loop programmable switcher kit.
Carl Martin has the Octa Switch.
There are also several other companies out there if you want to spend some money.

Whew, I need a break.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

After looking into it and talking with a couple builders it looks like modifications are very difficult if not impossible. All the work arounds involve contraptions that I don't feel are worth the trouble.

The simple thing to do is find pedals that use silent switches. There are hundreds of very good options.
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Bob

Ken Morgan · From: Midland, Texas, USA

Voodoo Labs (and others) make MIDI controlled true bypass loop systems that are operated by dead silent footswitches. Voodoo also makes a pedalboard mounted looper that is extremely quiet.

Expensive way to go, but will get rid of pops, ground loops, polarity issues, etc.
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67 Shobud Blue Darling III, scads of pedals and such, more 6 strings than I got room for

Ken Morgan
Midland, TX

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

FWIW: any coil-operated relay can be made to operate silent for low-effect signals, simply by slowing down their switch-speed via an RC coupling. It is high effects that need high switching-speeds (and corresponding switching noise) in regular switches and relays, and there aren't any high effects in the signal-ways in effect units.

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Georg: I don't understand your comment.

Are you proposing using an RC to slow down the voltage applied to the coil?

Or are you adding an RC to the actual audio signal line(s)?

ajm · From: Los Angeles

I will post a chart later to outline the various "kits" that I've found to replace the common 3PDT switches.

However, here is a little update.

Mammoth: I got a bad feeling. They have been out of stock for a few months, and I was keeping in touch with them as to when they might have some more for sale. I went to their web site yesterday, and the kit is gone. I e-mailed them about this, but I got a bad feeling.

Griffin Effects: I briefly went back over my notes, and they might be the hot ticket if Mammoth falls through.
The main difference that I can see betwen the two is that the Mammoth device has muting to silence the switch "pops", where the Griffin appears not to. I say "appears": I could be wrong.

If you buy the Griffin, you will maybe also need an SPST switch (which they sell for fairly cheap). There is a video on YT where they put one in a Boss Heavy Metal pedal, and use the stock switch. Search for this video: It shows it mounted in the pedal and demonstrates it working.

If you go to the Griffin web site, at the bottom of the page for the kit there are several really good PDF downloads that should give you a good idea of what to expect.

Like I said in a previous post, if at all possible, I think that I'd build a separate TBP box as opposed to trying to put this in a pedal. Depending upon the pedal, it may be difficult or messy or impossible.

Difficulty? IMO, not actually having done this yet, if you can wire up a 3PDT switch, you can do this.

http://www.griffineffects.com/other-kits/69-silent-step-true-bypass.html

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Just to be clear, we're talking about the mechanical "clunk" sound of the switch in an acoustic setting, not something that's coming through the speaker, right?
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Bob, Georg: I think that we/you are talking about two different things.

Switching an effect produces (at least, usually) two different sounds:
1) The mechanical ambient "chunk" of the switch itself.
2) Sometimes an electrical "pop" on the audio line due to the switch or relay switching the audio/electrical path.

Bob: I think that you are referring to the in the room CA-CHUNK that stomping on a 3PDT effect footswitch produces in the room. In other words, if you had an effects box sitting in your lap, not connected to anything, pushing on the switch with your hand would make a sound in the room. This is #1 above. Am I correct?

Georg: What I thought you were talking about was the audio "pop" sound. If you were sitting in another room, listening to a player using a DI box (no microphones) via headphones, when they switched an effect in/out you might hear a "pop" in the audio. You would not hear the actual switch itself because of the isolation of the headphones and the DI and and the different rooms. This is #2 above. Am I correct?

Georg, I have to admit that I am confused by what you are saying. I don't see how using an RC will eliminate any in room ambient click-clack-chunk of a switch.

These are two entirely different things. What I assumed the original topic was about was #1, getting rid of the noise in the room due to the mechanical switch noise.

Using these modules to get rid of an effects' 3PDT switch:
1) The loud ambient "chunk" would go away. You still might hear a little something from stepping on the switch, but if you get the right one (an SPST momentary) it should be much more quiet. Especially if you switch it by hand.

2) The "pop" on the audio using these kits that use a relay should be no more than the mechanical 3PDT stock switches. Some of the kits have electronic muting that actually silences the audio path for a very short period of time that will get rid of the "pop".

One thing about the Griffin YT video.
The kit/module is added to a Boss pedal that has electronic switching. In this case they keep and use the actual mechanical switch of the Boss pedal. This switch is already basically acoustically silent and has very little audible sound when pushed.
What the kit does in this case is implements TBP circuitry, so the effect no longer uses the stock electronic switching.
So basically the Griffin video does not pertain to what I assumed the original topic is, which is ambient noise.

FWIW, I have come up with a clickless switch circuit that is basically one that I found on the web. I made a couple of minor changes additions, the main one being that it always powers up to the effect bypassed mode. There is no programming of a micro controller like most of the commercial clickless kits. It takes a handful of garden variety parts.
The one thing that I haven't figured out how to do yet is mute the audio for the "pops" during switching. To be honest though, unless you are REALLY persnickitty it probably doesn't matter. There is very very little "pop". The 3PDT switches make more noise in the room than the "pop" on the audio signal. And......The 3PDT switches already have the "pop" sound anyway.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

"Pop" sounds in the signal upon switching are almost always DC-jumps from charging/discharging inline electrolytic capacitors. Balance them to a common potential and they'll stay silent on switching.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I'm only concerned with the MECHANICAL clicking sound. All that other stuff means nothing to me.

So... I am now in the process of trying out pedals and making sure the switches are quiet. I picked up the Chasebliss Brothers today and used it on a gig. Its pretty cool. I don't think it will replace my Earthdrive though.
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Bob

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Bob and bob: I think your question is answered. These kits replace the 3PDT switch that makes the ca-chunk in the room that everybody can hear. If you use the right/recommended SPST footswitch, that sound is reduced substantially.

"Pop" sound elimination: I have seen several suggested methods for eliminating or reducing this. As Georg said it is usually blamed on a DC charge on the input or output of an effect. The most common suggested fix is to put a 1 Meg resistor to ground on the effect input, and a 10K to 100K resistor to ground on the effect output. To be honest though, for whatever reason, I personally have not had much luck with this.

Also, keep in mind that by using one of these kits, you are essentially substituting a stock 3PDT "pseudo-relay" with a real relay acting as a pseudo-3PDT switch. The effect has no way of knowing if it's connected to a switch or a relay. Therefore, if you had a "pop" with the stock 3PDT, you'll probably have a "pop" with the relay kit.

Additionally, in the "more than one way to skin a cat" department: There is a way to wire up a 3PDT (or a DPDT) switch for TBP so that when the effect is switched out, the effect input is grounded. This can be helpful especially with distortion/OD/fuzz pedals, since when they are switched out the effect input would be terminated to ground and not floating around unterminated willy-nilly.

Back to the relays........

The relay that I used in my design, and that appears to basically be used in all of the kit modules, has the same size/footprint as a 16 pin DIP IC.

It clicks when it is switching. If I have it on the bench and am checking things out, I can hear it, sure. However, it is not as loud as the "silent" SPST momentary switch that I used. Which means that if you mount it in an enclosure like an effects box or a TBP strip (and I have no idea why you'd do otherwise), then you're not going to hear it.

I don't have a clear picture of what Georg is talking about with the relays and the RC thing. If the relays he's talking about in the decades old equipment are the much larger kind that often came in clear shells where you could see the innards working, then I have no doubt that you could hear the contacts switching more clearly. At any rate, that doesn't apply here.

As for the RC "damping" of the coils to eliminate this contact switching sound, I'll have to take your word for it. I don't know if the RC goes in parallel with the coil or from one side of the coil to ground.

At any rate, when the switching signal reaches the needed voltage, the contacts are going to switch. I don't see how slowing the rise/fall time of the switching signal will eliminate the contact click-clack.

To further add a problem, if the switching signal is excessively noisy, and it goes back and forth from on to off thresholds, the relay will switch back and forth and produce all kinds of "chatter" both audibly as well as on the signal line. THAT is absolutely something that you don't want.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Miikka Paatelainen · From: Finland

www.lovemyswitches.com sells Super Premium 3PDT Latched Foot Switch - Soft Click. Also Fujisoku 3PDT is quite silent but hard to find.
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Jackson Blackjack Custom S12, Desert Rose S12

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Georg: "Most come in SPST or DPST configs though, which means more than one, with a simple control circuit, is needed to get the DPDT/3PDT switch-action often used to gate effect units."

Maybe, depending upon the design. There are about a thousand ways to do this.
The several kits I saw all used 16 pin DIP DPDT relays with the part numbers clearly visible. A quick search for "3pdt dip relay" comes up empty.
The design I came up with uses a transistor as a switch to control both a DPDT relay and activate an LED, both being tied to the collector.
The relay and the LED are in parallel. I have read about some people having problems doing this, but I haven't had any......yet. I originally used a separate transistor for the relay and one for the LED, but it seemed to make no difference, and in the interest of keeping the parts count low, one of them was eliminated.
The relay is a 16 pin DIP size DPDT that I got at a local Radio Shack type chain (Frys). It is 5/6v, but they come in various voltages. It was only a few $$.
So the relay is used for the audio path switching, and the LED is switched by transistor. This accomplishes the same thing as a 3PDT.

"Compact "regular" relays are better suited in most cases, despite being slightly noisier. Physical and electronic dampening takes care of audible noise, and, believe me, they won't bounce. They also need no power for true bypass, since that is their "at rest" position."

What do you mean by a "compact regular relay"?
Do you have an example of one of these relays?
Will it fit inside of an existing pedal?
I have had no problems with relay bounce or chatter that I know of, and don't expect any. But if there is something better to use it would be nice to know.
Also, can you be more specific about the physical and electronic dampening?

"And then we have analog switches, that although in constant need of power are dead quiet. Can be rigged for near-zero switching to eliminate "pop" sounds if need be, and some of the newer ones are actually quite good."

I have a couple of pedals that use analog switches, so I am aware of those. Example: An MXR Bass DI.
The problem (if indeed it is one) is that AFAIK analog switches are not TBP. The signal is always going through some circuitry.

This topic/discussion started off as replacing a 3PDT switch in an existing pedal, or in my case an existing TBP strip (which is about the same size constraints).
It has to be small, quiet, use existing power in the pedal, and not draw a lot of power. Reverting to TBP if power is lost is also nice, although I don't know why. If you lose power in one place you've probably lost it in other places as well, in which case you've got bigger problems. ;>))

I also thought about just ripping the design out of a Boss or Ibanez pedal for their electronic switching design. However, the parts count started to add up, which means it would take up more space. And, FWIW, this would also not be TBP.
I did find a few designs that seemed to do this on the web, but they were on perf board, none on a PC board. They seemed like they would take up more physical space than may be available.
I'm actually surprised that someone hasn't taken the Boss/Ibanez e-switching circuit and turned it into a kit. You might be able to squeeze everything on a real PC board. Maybe they have, but I haven't found it.

In my research I found these relay kits, so that is the path that I went down. The one thing that I did not like about them was that they used a micro controller. I don't know why, but it just bugged me. There are probably some things that haven't occurred to me yet, but the only thing that I could see that it added or made easier was a muting function. If you didn't do that (and a couple of the designs appear not to), then it seemed like over engineering. (Not that I've never seen that in my experience, mind you.) In my research I found a few ways to get rid of the micro controller using standard readily available ICs.

Miikka: Interesting about the soft touch switches. But, being Mr. Negativity Pants for a second:
- Have you tried one? Is it much quieter?
- The price for a 3PDT is $14.99. It is quite a bit more than the norm for a 3PDT. This isn't as much as a relay kit, but if it's not noticeably more quiet it may not be a solution.
- The life of a mechanical switch is usually much less than a relay. Granted, this isn't a primary concern, but somebody would probably point it out sooner or later.
- If I ever get around to my ultimate science project comparing these switching methods I may order one of these just to see how it does.
- On the plus side, depending upon the size and footprint, these might be a drop in replacement for some existing pedals. That would make it easier for the Average Joe to replace their existing clunky switch.
- FWIW to us USA guys the parts ship from Oregon, and their contact phone # is Florida.

Miikka Paatelainen · From: Finland

I haven't try that Super Premium, but Fujisoku is quiet.
I build and repair tube amps and effects and I've replaced lots of switches. Problem is, that even a new
switch from well-known brand may last only an year if it's from bad batch. Relays are great and they last long.
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Jackson Blackjack Custom S12, Desert Rose S12

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

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