MSA Pro-Am SIDEKICK copedent question

G. Robertson · From: California, USA

I have an MSA Pro-Am SIDEKICK 3X1 and am selling it for a friend. Can anyone tell me if the one right knee lever is suppose to lower the two E's to Eb like I'm used to on my ShoBud?

When I got it to make sure it was all working before I shipped it to the buyer, the A,B and C pedals worked fine with the regular Emmons setup but the right knee lowered the #4 string E to Eb and also raised the #8 string E to F at the same time.

Was this the normal copedent for the SIDEKICK? I don't know if the changer is stuck, malfunctioning or just not capable of a lower on that 8th string.

Any help much appreciated. I want to be sure the fellow buying it is getting a properly working guitar.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

here'sthemanual
courtesy of the late John Fabian and crew at World Class Steels.

Edit: I didn't notice you wrote ProAm, I believe it's a different animal than the student style Sidekick or the Semi-Classic but both of those tunings are listed there.

Perhaps someone else has the definitive answer.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

If it is built same as the Pro Am sidekick I have, it should have a triple raise/triple lower changer.
I have a 3 + 2 setup tho, lowering both E's and raising both E's.
Changing setup is a piece of cake.

The (8) E-F and (4) E-Eb seems like a nice compromise to me.

Mine sounds absolutly killer, pedal action and everything is :) and I wish I had two more knee levers. Only downside is that it is kinda lightweight and tend to move a little when using the kneelevers (altho that is kinda nice when you gonna carry it)

B.Erlandsen

G. Robertson · From: California, USA

Thanks, Jerry. Yes, I saw that manual for the regular SIDEKICK and the Pro Am is slightly different. But I've never seen a copedent with an 4th and 8th string E simultaneous raise and lower on the same knee lever. So I'm assuming it is a malfunctioning changer. I hope to hear more from someone here!

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Well, since the Pro Am is an all pull changer, I would assume that someone had it set up to lower one E and raise the other on the same lever purposely for some reason or the other.

If it's an all pull, it can easily be changed.
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G. Robertson · From: California, USA

Thanks, Jerry - Can you (or anyone) tell me a source for info on how how I might make it lower both E's rather than the raise one/lower the other like it has now?

I have a pedestrian knowledge of changers and can't tell how to adapt a finger/pivot to lower instead of raise. Does it required disassembly of the whole changer to modify it to do so?

However, I suspect malfunction because when the rod for string 8 is in the same changer hole as the rod for string 4 (which lowers the E to Eb) it only raises the E on the 8th string.

Puzzling...

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Puzzling indeed. If you are saying that the rod is in the lowering scissors member and yet acting as a raise then it's working backwards. Definitely a problem, but without seeing it, I can't offer any solution. I have heard of scissors assemblies wearing off stops and flopping the wrong way, but never witnessed it.

Maybe try loosening up the tuning key and the nylon tuner letting everything go back to neutral then re-tune?

Apologies for my basic and elementary comments and for the simple diagrams. Just hoping to help get to your issue.

Do these changer fingers appear to operate like yours?

http://steelguitar.com/maps/changer.html#

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

No, that wasn't a standard setup on a Pro~Am (or any other guitar, for that matter). It has a typical all-pull changer and will do whatever you set it up to do. Evidently, someone has changed the setup...no biggie for someone who knows a little about pedal steels. The Sidekick and Sidekick Pro~Am are different guitars.

G. Robertson · From: California, USA

No apology necessary, Jerry. Those mechanism diagrams were very educational for me.

The SIDEKICK seems to be a single rivet raise and lower finger mechanism.
The mechanisms look the same on all strings but some behave differently.
I tried string-off, lube, exercise of the 2 pieces of the malfunctioning raise/lower finger but still no luck. With string and spring off, the 2 plates moved independently and didn't seem to bind anywhere.

As seen in the first pic of the tailpiece, the lower 2-hole plate is the pitch lower mechanism part and the 2-hole upper raises pitch. The two E strings that should lower are, counting from the left, 3 and 7. (Strings 4 and 8.) The rest are raises. Just for the pic, 3 has no nut on the rod. The lower works as it should on 7 (string 4) with the 2-hole upper raise plate not moving when the knee lever is pushed - just the 2-hole lower plate. But on 3 both the upper and lower plates move together and raise pitch even though there is no rod and nut in the upper raise holes.

As I checked other strings, if iI pushed the #8 lower plate with a screwdriver it lowered pitch and moved independently from the upper plate.

Very mysterious why #3 doesn't work as it should.

Any thoughts, comrades?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

What's with those (copper tube) spacers??? They're obviously too large, and may be interfering with the operation of the changer.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Yeah, if the spacer on the lower rod is not bypassing the raise scissor when it's actuated, it will drag on it, or contact it directly, and pull the raise finger. There is very little clearance there.

Otherwise, besides a lost string ball end hung up in the changer, I don't have any other ideas at this point.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

From the pictures posted it can look like some of the nylon tuners has been over-tuned and put the whole thing out of whack, because some of the changer fingers is not resting at their proper position. You could also have a problem with the returning springs (connected to the lower finger) beeing slack and not pulling the lowering finger back to rest. I would loosen all those nylon tuning nuts as far needed to put all fingers with at rest, then check w tip of screwdriver pushing the upper and lower spearately to chk that raise and lower fuctions as it should, with no parts sticking together. Even check if you can push the lowering finger back to rest if the spring isnt pulling as hard as it should. The lowering finger should not pull the spring when the raise is engaged. If it does, then something is sticking on the mechanism.

B.Erlandsen

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

A closer look at the underside shows raise finger #3 beeing far fwd, raising the 3rd string and prbly wont raise the string any further. All those raise fingers should be resting more or less at the same place, none beeing further fwd/back when no levers or pedals are engaged.
Also the raise finger on string 10 seems be very far fwd and it should not be resting at that position.

B.Erlandsen

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

What everyone here is saying is likely correct, and the more we all look, the more problems we see. Looking at the photos again, it also looks like the string 10 finger may be binding on the cabinet, and that may be a crack...near the lowering scissor end. In all frankness, I'd get the guitar to someone who knows something about fixing and setting up pedal steels. You don't want to make it worse than it already is.

G. Robertson · From: California, USA

Very grateful to everyone for their help! I'm doing my best to get it sorted out and will keep you all apprised.

PS - Donny, thanks for pointing it out, but that is actually not a crack in the wood, but just a milling/routing ridge in it.

G. Robertson · From: California, USA

Thanks again top everyone for their suggestions. I ended up taking the changer completely apart, cleaned and lightly lubed it and starting setting it up from scratch. I don't know how the fingers got so far out of adjustment but once I got it back together, all the fingers lined up evenly and everything worked as it should with the standard ABC pedal raises and the one right knee set up to lower the E's. It was an education, but now I have a handle on the guts of a simple changer!

Jeffrey McFadden · From: Missouri, USA

G. Robertson · From: California, USA

I did, Jeffrey! I found size #6 x 1/4" od x 3/4" long aluminum spacers at Home Depot that work much better. Their internal diameter is closer to the rod diameter and there is more flat contact for the nylon nuts.

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