Who has gone back to 10 Stg & why??

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I would like to hear from players who have given the 12stg E9/B6 Universal tuning a try and went back to 10 stg's on a S-10 or D-10.
What were the reasons you decided to switch back?
JE:-)>

Rex Thomas · From: Thompson's Station, TN

I just had to jump in on this one. I had an S-12 '76 Emmons I played & kept for 23 yrs. I played D-10's before that, & that was my 1st "experimental" tuning which was really the same tuning Buddy was using then; a standard E9 except with a C# string between the E & B, but instead of a low E I used a G# which made for a nice low pad. But when I came into situations where I played that gtr. less, it made me want to go back to a D-10. A pro here said it best: "Goodness Rex! You gotta THINK too hard to play that thing!" Of course, he's right. Now I could get some nice doubling combinations besides some quick C6 stuff, but the D-10 is where I need to be as I can get around better with the 2 necks, & my brain doesn't overheat as bad. Good question, Jim.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I switched from a 12st universal to a D10 for these reasons:
1. Tone
2. Intonation ( not so many comprimises)
3. I can change things around on one neck without screwing up the other one.
4. I have more options in regards to sound and phrasing. I play something on the E neck and then I can try it on the C neck.
5. I find that even after spending years on the 12 st E9/B6 that I understand the fuctions of the tunings much better on a D10.

There is a bunch of other stuff. Plenty of guys that feel the same way about the opposite so who knows ?

Bob

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Great topic. I'd like to hear more responses.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I couldn't really switch BACK, since I have played 12-strings from the early 70s.

I believe it's all what you're used to. The longer you use a certain configuration the more you need it to voice your musical ideas. I bought my first D-10 a couple of years ago and just can't get used to it. Played gigs on it for six months or so -- it was fine, but it was like playing someone else's guitar (that I'd paid $3000 for

)

I'll just stick with 12, thank you.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 March 2002 at 06:54 AM.]

Billy Woo · From: Los Angeles, CA, USA

Count me in as a 12 string man..I really like having the extra grips on the low end that you can't get with the 10 string it adds so much more to recordings not to mention my Zumsteel 12 is pretty light too..

Mark Tomeo · Posted 22 Mar 2002 8:35 am

I played an S-12 E9/B6 universal for 20-odd years and a few years ago got an Emmons LeGrande. This was mainly to try and learn to play proper C6 style. You can do a lot of it on a 12-string, but it's just not the same, both in terms of tone and the notes and changes available. The D-10 is really cool and comfortable. Having a black Emmons D-10 is akin to owning a Telecaster. If you're going to play country music you want that sound and that vibe.
I swapped the 12-string for a nice Dobro and later got a push pull. But I found that I missed having the 12-string. So eventually I swapped the push pull for a notorious 12- string Zum which I am using for an extended E9 tuning. It's good for rock and blues and other odd applications, and I confine my limited C6 abilities to the Emmons.
So now I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I go back and forth between the two guitars depending on the musical circumstances. It takes a little getting used to because of the string spacing but I find that if I've played the Zum for a while when I switch back to the Emmons, I think - ah, I've missed this, and vice versa.
If you've never played a 12-string I think it might be difficult to get used to. It's probably easier to go back to a D-10 or S-10 than to go the other way. But I feel like I have the best of both worlds with my current array.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I've played a Sierra 12 string E9/B6 exclusively for the past 8 years after 20 some years on a D-10 and I'm glad I did.But last year I picked up a 6 pedal 10 string single neck Fender 800 cable-pull guitar that I'm just about finished adding 6 knee levers to.When I finally get that puppy up and running,I plan to use it on my more West Coast country type gigs.I wish it DID have 12 strings and triple raise/lower but since it doesn't,I've devised a lean & mean double raise/lower 10 string E9/B6 w/6+6 which I'll post with pix when I get it finished.So in my case,I'm going back to a 10 string reluctantly-but for a certain old time Mooney "stink" that you can't get on any other guitar and for what it is,I'm sure it'll do me just fine.It'll be as close to my 12 string in string,pedal and knee lever layout as possible and I'll be able to get 95% of what I normally play on a typical gig.I know a few guys who are very comfortable going back and forth constantly between 10 and 12 strings and I guess I'm gonna have to be one of them. -MJ-

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I have been playing S12's for a good many years. But I thought I would try a D10 again.
I got a Rare MSA D10 Classic SS. These are Bud Carter built, and much lighter weight than the older MSA's and they are Triple Raise and Lower.
I also have a S12 Excel with 7 pedals and 6 knee levers. Both very fine guitars. But I go along with Larry, I'll keep playing the S12's.BUT remember I dont play E9/B6 I play E9/E6 /E13 and When I play a D10 I tune the bottom neck to E6 NoT C6. ....al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 23 March 2002 at 07:28 PM.]

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Since I ask the question that started this thread, I'd better answer it myself!
I played my 75 D-10 PP for 20+ years until I took a break from playing at all for a few years, life stuff ya know

.
Through my day job at a software company, I came in contact with Don Christensen of Sierra and one thing let to another and I was soon the new owner of a Session S-12 E9/B6 8/5 keyless guitar. I love the Sierra for its precision action and feel. I like the way it sounds too! I must,I've been playing it for the last 3 years!
I feel that it's the E9/B6 tuning that I just can't make work for me. I think I take my point of reference for "note" location in the tuning from the 1st string. This if fine for the E9th side, but even though the 1st string is still the highest note in the B6 tuning, that gap over the 2nd & 3rd strings to get back to the "rest" of the B6 tuning seems to throw me for a loop in my musical thinking.
The other point I thought I could get use to is the "D" string issue. Everytime this is brought up is a thread on S-12 tunings, the point is always made that "you can get that same note with a KL". And that's true.
I understand why that defense is always raised and could well have posted it myself.
But after three years of "giving it a fair shot" with the E9/B6, I don't seem as comfortable with the different lower inversion chord grips that occur in the E9th side of the S-12 tuning as I did before with the that dang old D string in there!
I will be getting my Emmons back from Mike Cass after a "full" restoration & refinish soon and I'm really looking forward to not only getting my "old" guitar back in front of my again, but getting my old "comfort" zones back again on both tunings.
JE:-)>

Chuck Martin · From: Clifton, Virginia

After researching the advantages of the universal tuning I bought a U-12 Carter in '97 after playing mostly E9 10 string for many years. I played the universal for 2 years before I gave up and went back to a D-10 setup. Visually, I never got used to the 12 strings and found myself grabbing the wrong string groups. I have a lot of respect for the guys that can really switch mentally between E9/B6 guitar. I am much more comfortable thinking about just 1 tuning at a time on my D-10 and have no regrets about going back. That said, I still think the advantages of the 12-string are such that I would encourage new players to start out on one. I guess you really can't teach old dogs new tricks.

Chuck

[This message was edited by Chuck Martin on 22 March 2002 at 07:25 PM.]

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Now, I am surely no expert a psg..but I've been trying to play sg for fifty years...I say trying, and that's no joke. One thing I know is that a lot of guys who try a universal tuning keep thinking in E9th and C6 terms....It's neither!!!!! Sure, you can play most C6th stuff just like on C6 neck, and most E9th stuff just like on E9th neck...but you gotta learn to think of a universal as a tuning all to itself...with just a few more places to get the same chord...just like having a psg with a whole handful of knees/pedals....why they ever put a "lock" on a universal to lower the E's I just don't understand. That's like the old transition guitars that had a lever(s) to shift between two or more open tunings...with six strings (or Cool

on those things you could re-tune almost as fast as you could shift a lever, anyway....oh, well, I digress....What I mean to say, is that if you START out with a universal tuning, you won't think in E9 or C6 terms, but in patterns with a whole lot more options...all of this in my humble opinion, of course...

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

You guys are all right!

If you spend 20 years on one system, you might need 20 more years to get comfortable with the other. Why bother? I can tell you what works for me, but that won't help you.

I guess I'll have to break down and buy a D-10 before I'm qualified to offer a fair critique of each setup. I had no problem switching from a S-10 to a S-12U since I never had the C6 experience. Add to that the fact I never liked the D note to begin with. I was always hitting it at the wrong time, it just seemed out of place. So I had that on my guitar for about two weeks, then took it off and added a low E note. That just seemed right to me. So when I got a S-12 about three years ago, I was already halfway there and the rest came easy.

The worst part was remembering the inside G#-B interval was not in the middle of the neck, it had moved north. The other hard part was playing those low notes in the E9 mode and staying in tune. But once that comes together, all those notes on one tuning becomes wonderful. A little like playing a piano, it's all there,you just reach over and grab it.

Now of course I hear guys play fantastic stuff that depends on the D note in the D-10 tuning and I understand the reason why it's important.

Maybe it's like different brands of guitar. If you're a bluegrass guitarist and see all your heroes playing Martin dreadnaughts, you assume that's the only proper bluegrass guitar. Then one day someone shows up with a Taylor or a fine old Gibson and plays some amazing stuff, then you realize "OK, maybe there's another way." You have to hear it and see it work and work well to accept it.

If you're thinking about making the switch, be aware that it won't seem natural for awhile. It is a different instrument. And it might not work, ever.

Jeff Newman says, in his video, if you're gonna make the switch, to get rid of the D-10, don't look back. Well, you have to decide. I say he's right, make the commitment and stick with it. Switching back and forth between the two would drive me nuts.

Another reason I favor the S-12U is slightly esoteric. It's the notion that pedal steel guitar is really a little too complex, too heavy and too difficult to begin with. I mean, seriously, these heavy amps, the FX, all the damn cords and things that can go wrong. Then the tempered tuning, the clumsy volume pedal that can fail at the wrong time. C'mon guys, would a sane person take up such thing? Call it fiddle envy, or mandolin envy. My response to that notion is to keep it as simple as possible yet retain the essence of that wonderful sound. The 12 string seems the most reasonable approach and whatever it lacks, I can live without.
--JR

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Having played D-10 for about 7 or 8 years and being influenced by Jeff Newman, I bought a 12 String Sho-Bud back around '79-80. Bob Lucier converted it to true universal with 7X4 and I played it everywhere, gigs, sessions, TV. Never felt comfortable with it, especially on swing and jazz stuff. The straw that broke the camels back came when I was doing a TV series and I was asked to play an instrumental, Remingtion Ride on it. It had to be done in C# do to the tuning. I watched the show a week or two later, realized how out of tune I sounded and promptly sold it and went back to D-10's. It would be interesting to try it now that I've changed to a straight up tuning, but that doesn't cure the weird string spacing at the top of the guitar for the B6th. stuff.

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

John: Interesting observation. Maybe the reason I don't have that problem is because I had 20+ years of "faking" C6 on the E9 neck. Remington Ride is a song I play frequently and I find it pretty easy since I operate out of the E9 mode primarily.

As you are aware there are at least two 6th voicings built into the E9 and one is the "first position" for the B6 mode, i.e. the Es lowered. To me, most of the chord voicings for swing music can be found there, when you add the S-12U changes and extra strings, it pretty much completes the package.

This cuts to the heart of the argument in favor of the Universal, the notion that certain types of songs require a certain tuning. I don't know of any instrument where this bifurcation, if you will, occurs. Because steel guitar evolved from several tunings it seems natural to standardize on at least two.

Maybe it was the evolution of the E9 tuning and the music it was created for that is responsible for this fork in the road, stylistically speaking. The 6th tuning was pretty much there all along.

The thing that sticks in my head is that for the most part, we're really only playing three-note chords--when we do play chords. When we're soloing or playing fills it's clusters of single note runs or two note intervals.

It really comes down to mind-set and if you see the D-10 as the logical "correct" setup as most players do, the other thing becomes exotic and difficult. And if you spend many years attaining some proficiency on the first, you'll struggle to get there quickly on the second.

If somebody came up with a different standard tuning for Spanish guitar and a set of chords that supported it, it would be a challenge to adopt to that. Poor analogy maybe, I'm just saying that I understand the difficulty involved.

I guess I'm lucky I couldn't afford one of those double-neck beasts in the beginning, then I wouldn't be raving on about this well-worn subject. I'll just say that I'm now kind of glad it worked out the way it did because I'd be just as disoriented going the other way.

--JR

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jim & John Lacey,
I think it's important to capitalize on the advantages the S-12 offers over the D-10 rather than dwell on the fact that it has a slightly different tone in B6, compared to 10 string C6. BUT . . . rather than thinking about JUMPING OVER the 2nd and 3rd strings, realize that they're useful scale tones. Once you begin using those strings in a C6 style improvisation, you'll find it's very much like the way you navigate over the chromatic strings on E9. I have the equivalent of the G, D, and even a high A -- on top of the tuning. Comes in handy some times. Extends the top end of C6 quite a bit.

Just another way to look at the 'string gap' in playing B6 on a universal.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 23 March 2002 at 08:54 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I never understood why some guys say it's incorrect to lock the E lowers or that it's incorrect to think of a universal as two seperate tunings.Why? Why can't it be OK to think of a universal as two seperate necks superimposed over each other and just think of the concept as a weight saving device?
I ask you - where is it written? -MJ-

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

This is an interesting subject. I've thought for while about trying out a S-12U after 20 years of playing a D-10. I'm just now learning to get around on the C6 and have a ways to go but I'm comfortable with it where I am for now. My only reason to try the U12 is for the weight factor. I don't completely understand the tuning just by reading all the different set-ups I see but it seems the D string should be there or at least to me. I use that string constantly on the E9 and would be lost without it. I've heard of guys using a 13 string and I assume for that reason. I'm always going to gigs and setting up and tearing down all the time and I've had a bad back for 25 years and it's not getting any better. I can't see a S-10 on double bodies. To me that's a waste. You may as well go on and have both necks since it's nearly the same weight anyway. I wish I had that S-12 Sho-Bud that was sold. I still may try a S-12 just to see how it goes but would like to try one out first so I don't have to spend a fortune just to see. If it works I'd go for it.

[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 24 March 2002 at 02:49 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I have a lever on my U-12 that raises both the 9th and 10th strings(B and G#)up 1&1/2 steps to D and B.What this gives me is the first 10 strings of a standard 10 string E9 exactly - including the 9th string D and the normal 10th string B.
Plus,I've got a low E in 11th position and a low B as my 12th string.So open,w/the magic lever in,let me spell it out high to low: F#,D#,G#,E,B,G#,F#,E,D,B,E,B. No missing D and the surrounding notes neatly in place also.So much for the missing D string argument.Obviously,you can't pull the 10th string B up from there cause it's already pulled up a step and a half. But between this configuration and the normal universal setup w/that lever disengaged and/or the use of another lever that lowers my 8th string E down to that same D note,I assure you I can get any lick or combination on those low strings you can get on a 10 string E9.I might be moving around between a couple different grips to do it,but it all resolves together in some real slick new(and very musical)ways.There's also lots more stuff that ain't on either neck of an old fashioned D-10 - like playing a no pedals Iadd9 chord on strings 6,7,8,9&10 then hitting the magic lever bringing it up to a Idom13 chord and then releasing the lever to a AB pedals down IV6 chord.Anyhow,I just can't see disassociating all the U-12 combinations back to two different necks now and losing all the "in between" stuff in the process.I'll stop now before I turn this into another U-12 vs D-10 thread. -MJ-

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I think it is all a matter of comfort zone and how long you've been playing a D-10. I played D-10 for 8 yrs and switched to U-12. There is nothing that can't be duplicated between a D-10 8+5 and a U-12 7+5. Beyond that, the additional pedals and knees are added with personal taste.
Remington Ride and Raisin The Dickens can be played in E on the U-12 neck (note for note) as in the Key of D on the C6th. The open strings are there if you start with the first string (F#)
There are some very nice changes on the B to D knee on the U-12 that make transitions sound smooth on slow tunes. Plus, the same change has some useful moves to use with the B6th tuning.
Getting used to the extra two strings and different grips is the hardest part after playing a D-10 for a number of years. Tone? Everyone always wants to sound like Buddy Emmons. Who doesn't? A S-12 or a D-10 won't make the difference. One can imagine it, but until you can rob his brain and hands, I don't think so. You're stuck with you. Make the best of it!

[This message was edited by Dennis Detweiler on 24 March 2002 at 08:02 PM.]

RON PRESTON · From: Dodson, Louisiana, USA

When you have DDD, (degenerative Disk Disease)and you walk like the leaning Tower of Pizza, you start eleminating stuff that you hardly ever use due to WEIGHT. BUT.....I LOVE what you can get from a U-12 that you cannot get from a S-10.

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

Maybe if I had more experience with the D-10, I could answer this. What exactly is the tone difference between the S12 and D-10?

I play a S-12 and listen almost exclusively to the great players who play D-10 guitars, therefore I model my sound after them. While I may not be there in terms of technique and style, I think I've pretty much nailed the actual tone that I'm hearing on record.

If it's a matter of the weight or mass of the guitar, there may be a difference in sustain, but given the same type of body construction, mechanicals and pickups, what could cause one to sound different from the other? Are you guys saying that there is an obvious difference in sound between the two and that a reasonably musically inclined person could could sit blindfolded and tell the difference?

To someone just starting out, you might want to listen to a number of players to decide if the type of guitar is really that important. Case in point, listen to Lloyd Green and Tom Brumley (single neck players) and if you like what you hear, then don't be influenced away from that type of guitar, be it a S-10 or S-12.

As to the intonation question, some S-12 players, including myself, have noticed a tendancy, on some instruments, to detune slightly in the middle strings. That is slightly more than a D-10 guitar. This condition is easily remedied via compensators and playing technique. See the thread on Compensators.

If there is another mechanical shortcoming to the S-12 setup, I'd like to hear more about it from players who have gone back to D-10 or who have made the switch either way.

--JR

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

I originally played a single 10 and was thinking about moving up to a double neck. I then thought about the players that have a double neck and play the E9 neck and use the C6 for an arm rest.

I thought I may fall into the C6 arm rest catagory if I aquired a double neck guitar. I went into the universal 12 thinking that I could get into the extended E9 side of the guitar and ease into the B6 side. The worst thing that could happen was I still had an extended E9 if the B6 never materialized.

I want to expolre a double 10 but I don't think I would ever leave the U-12.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

John,
My personal experience with tone is from owning and playing U12's and D10's at the same time. In direct side by side comparisons my Franklin D10 sounded better than the U12. Both guitars sounded great but the D10 sounded much better. This was also true with my Emmons PP U12 next to a D10.

As far as tuning goes the issue is how many different functions each note needs to have. With the U12 I could never get it just right. With the D10 it is much more easy. I really don't think that the U12 in its E9/B6 tuning will last in the long term. I see a 12st tuning being more productive in the Sacred steel set up or in a more focused hybrid diatonic tuning like what Emmons is up to.

In retrospect I think I wasted allot of time working with the E9/B6 tuning. It just did not suit my needs.

I'm glad all you guys like whatever tuning you use. So to each his own. This is just my personal experience.

Bob

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Logic tells me if a 10 string sounds better than a 12, then an 8 string would sound better yet? Maybe a S-1 with a single pole pickup, one floor pedal and two knee levers? Killer tone!

Kidding aside...Maurice Anderson set up a studio experiment once with different brands of guitars, necks, pickups. Without looking, no one could pick out which guitar was being played, so I'm told.
I believe too many factors are in control: the player, effects rack, guitar, pickup, amp, volume pedal, acoustics, etc. An Emmons guitar probably wouldn't be recognizable if played through a Silvertone amp.
If you want to play a D-10 or a U-12, go for it! Four string bass or five? Four string fiddle or 5 string? Is there a distict tone difference on them? Eeehh?

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