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Topic: How good can it REALLY SOUND?? |
Jon Kostal
From:
Westmont, Illinois, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 6:41 pm |
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Hi everyone,
I played for about 13 years every weekend, and used a D10 Emmons with a Goodrich 120 and a Nashville 400. Sold that stuff to lighten up. Got a U12 Pedalmaster from a forumite that I REALLY like.
So I've been reading the forum, bought Brad's Black Box, bought Keith's Hilton pedal, both wonderful products. Bought a Nashville 112, love the thing.
Just transcribed the Buddy Emmons "Black" album to CD. While listening to this, I thought, how much better could a pedal steel possibly sound? This is the best sounding thing ever, in my humble opinion, recorded in what? 1965 or so? No Black Boxes, no Hilton volume pedals.
I just ordered a new Goodrich 120 from Bobbe, so maybe I don't have to lug those 2 powered units and the power strip with extension cord around.(I'm gonna keep all my new goodies,though.)
What do you all think?
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Jon
Uncle Jons Music
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Carlos Polidura
From:
Puerto Rico
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 7:10 pm
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jon,
i think all you need is the guitar, its very essentials, and you, and you will sound as good as you can get.
carlos |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 7:39 pm
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| Too much stuff these days.. We ALL love the sound of the old steels right?....... Guitar/POT volume pedal/amp... period... bob |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 8:03 pm
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| It's true. If you could get Buddy's hands, you wouldn't need anything else. |
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John Lockney
From:
New Market, Maryland, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 8:13 pm
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According to Herb Steiner, the Black Album was recorded on "Saturday, June 17, 1971 at 2:45 in the afternoon."
There is tons of great info under "ask Buddy" but watch out, it can suck you in for HOURS!
[This message was edited by John Lockney on 29 September 2005 at 09:14 PM.] |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 9:00 pm
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Jon I get your point. However in that time period. A 69 Emmons and Fender Twin with JBL's was about as good as could be had.May still be? Anyway, in the years after that. Buddy experimented with about every toy on the market.I guess a lot of us are always looking for something better.
The Black album, which is one of the all time greatist steel guitar albums ever recorded. Is not my favorite Buddy Emmons tone.I liked his tone better on the Live At ST. Louis LP as well as several of his later records. But then tone is subjective... |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 9:28 pm
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| Another thing may be the sound of most records today. The majority of commercial music is recorded with ProTools or some other software/hardware combo and digital machines. This is the sound of contemporary records. It does not sound like analog tape and analog circuits, and all of the other factors that have changed with our contemporary recording tecnology contribute. I know that some people still use tape to make records, still use vintage consoles and other gear, but most do not, and it never sounds as good, IMHO. There is a common and distinct tone to most steel guitars that I hear in "new country", I mean mainstream contemporary country music, that has a ultra-clean processed quality to it...it sounds compressed, but not warm, it sounds very ProTools to me. I'm not sure exactly where that tone comes from, but I've never heard it on pre-1990's recordings, and it's a different sound than the way older recordings of steel guitars sound: the older records have a much more musical and organic tone (sorry for the cliche, but it seems accurate). |
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Webb Kline
From:
Orangeville, PA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 9:50 pm
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Cliff, I have to agree with you. I just recently started doing some work in an analog studio. They have a couple of old, but wonderful Sculleys and some 16 track Tascam machines. Who knows, maybe it's all psychological, but it sounds warmer. The one digital studio where I record has a very expensive tube pre, but it still doesn't produce the tone out of my instruments that I get in this analog studio. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!  |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 5:05 am
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Hey Jon, I know what you mean about that sound! One of my favorite albums of all time is the Ray Price "Nightlife" album cut around '62 or '63 I believe and there's never been another recording that had a better steel sound in my opinion! Of course it was the Big E. The fills and turnarounds are so beautiful it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Like some folks say "It's all in the hands" and I think I believe that. No matter what type of guitar or amp the big E plays he still sounds like himself! I think a proficient player, no matter what equipment he (she) uses, if their sound in possible on any given rig, they'll find it....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
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Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 7:16 am
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| Quote: |
| Got a U12 Pedalmaster from a forumite that I REALLY like. |
...I just wondered, who's the forumite that you REALLY like?.. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 7:24 am
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The guitar was sold to a gentleman with six knee levers.  |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 7:29 am
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| I personally suspect that a small amount of distortion and intermodulation effects make music sound warmer and more interesting. If not, wouldn't everyone have moved immediately to synthesizers once it became possible to make pure tones, and avoid all those pesky distorted, out of tune, and difficult to play instruments? There must be some very good reason for the proliferation of chorus units and fuzztones and tube preamps and all - perfection bores the ears? |
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Michael Garnett
From:
Seattle, WA
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 7:41 am
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I'm with Jim Cohen. It's all in the hands, and if you're talking about tone, the majority of that comes from the right hand. There's not a steel or any other gear made in the past 25 years that "E" wouldn't sound great on. Put my rig in front of him, he'll sound like "E." Sit me behind "The Blade" (God forbid me for my blasphemy) and you'll have something sounding like somebody stepping on an electric cat.
Of course Analog analong always sounds better. But sooner or later it's getting converted to digital anyway, like on the CD you're listening to. A lot of studios will do all the tracking and mixing in ProTools or other software, then mix down to a 2 or 4 track tape to get that analog sound for the master.
-MG |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 30 Sep 2005 3:08 pm
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| Yes, it's all in the hands. But, I don't think going from digital to analog is the same as going from analog to digital. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 1 Oct 2005 2:27 am
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A recording engineer (now Philip Glass' sound man) say nowadays the sound starts as analog, goes to digital, and back to analog.
I would say, a record produced in the '60s will sound better on vinyl than on cd; an album produced for cd has to be on cd.
The playback system should be commensurate with the era in which it was produced.
I prefer Buddy's tone on the Black album; he's playing with monster players, and it sounds like an instrument in capable hands, like the keyboard and sax players. It doesn't need any effects to make it flash. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Oct 2005 2:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| What do you all think? |
Jon, I'm inclined to agree. Let's face it, there's enough stuff out there now to keep most everyone happy. Still, some keep searching for something "magic" in the sound department. If you want to sound like Buddy and Tom Brumley did 40 years ago, the easiest path is to use exactly what they did 40 years ago! On the other hand, if what Paul and Tommy sound like today is to your liking, use the modern stuff, like thay do.
Just remember, either choice will work equally well (once you learn to play well). That's the hardest part for most players to realize.  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 01 October 2005 at 03:20 PM.] |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 1 Oct 2005 3:18 pm
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,,
So is tone/sound, in the ear (so to speak)of the beholder..
Bill |
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Scott Appleton
From:
Ashland, Oregon
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Posted 2 Oct 2005 8:01 am
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This thread has been ravaged before but the essential idea is the coloration of magnetic tape recordings in the large trac format changes the sound a bit. Listen to the tone dicky Overby gets on
the Justin Travino albums.. sounds as good I think
as any tone an Emmons and a Peavey can sound.
I dont know what recording system they used but its great by my ears.
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Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130, Acoustic 165 100 W all tube EV 12, Nash 112, digitech 2101 FX |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2005 8:06 am
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The last CD prroject I worked on was done in a studio using RCA tube compressors from the 60's, and ancient analog console and an Stevens tape machine.
It was amazing how much warmer and how much more "presence" the recording had. I did upright bass on a couple tracks and you can hear my courdoroy jeans brushing the instrument in a couple spots.
The analog stuff just sounds more "real". I'm not dissing the practicality of digital or the fact that it's far less expensive to get a good digital than a good analog recording - but the analog stuff done right will blow away digital sound.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 02 October 2005 at 09:07 AM.] |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2005 11:29 am
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Buddy's Black Album - Fender Twin - stock 12" speakers.
Lloyd w/Charlie Pride at Panther hall - Fender Twin w/12" JBL's.
Brumley - Fender Tweed Bassman and Fender Twins. Together Again - Bassman w/4-10" speakers.
Brad |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Posted 2 Oct 2005 11:53 am
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I have never heard Emmons with anything less than great tone. Tommy White and John Hughey have just as great tone and recording sound today.
Hook
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www.HookMoore.com
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Jon Kostal
From:
Westmont, Illinois, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2005 7:15 pm
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Thanks for all your replies, the answers were what I'd hoped, I'm not alone. I really never considered the change in recording techniques, interesting. BTW, Bobbe doesn't sell pot pedals anymore, so I guess I'll rebuild my old 120. Now I'll be looking for a blackface twin. It never ends......
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Jon
Uncle Jons Music
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 6 Oct 2005 5:42 pm
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If one could get Buddy Emmons; Lloyd Green;
John Hughey and/or such others....to play a given song on the same exact instrument, amp, strings, using the same picks and bar, in the same studio, etc....
would you expect to be able to readily identify each player?; or is there something more we're overlooking? |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 7 Oct 2005 4:42 am
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"Lloyd w/Charlie Pride at Panther hall - Fender Twin w/12" JBL's".
Brad - didn't Lloyd have a single 15" JBL installed in his Fender Twin at that time? Whatever he had, it was certainly one of the best sounding steel guitar backing ever put on vinyl.
[This message was edited by Ken Byng on 07 October 2005 at 05:43 AM.] |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2005 6:32 am
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Begin forwarded message from Lloyd Green:
Ken Byng, in responding to your post is correct in stating I had started using a Fender Twin with one 15" D-130F JBL by that era, 1968, when the Panther Hall album was recorded.
However, RCA flew an entire crew of session musicians to Fort Worth to cut that live album, excepting the guitar player whom I called the Dallas union local and asked them to send us a good one. They did; Johnny Patterson.
Then, not wanting the additional weight of an amp, I had Wally Cochran, promotion manager for RCA call a Dallas music store and rent a Fender Twin with 2 12'' JBLs for the show. When I walked onto the stage at Panther Hall there sat a beautiful, brand new Twin with orange seal 12" JBLs. I can still see the price tag wrapped around the handle, $595!
I wish I had bought it and brought it back to Nashville to use on sessions since it was one of the best sounding 2 or 3 Fender amps I've ever played through.
But once I got back to Nashville I did start using an almost-as-good Twin with 12" gray seal D-120 JBLs on sessions for the next 6 or 7 years, including the Paul McCartney record, "Sally G", all the great Faron Young stuff of the late 1960s and 1970s, most of the Mel Street recordings, including "Borrowed Angel" and thousands of other recordings before switching to a Peavey Session 400 in 1977.
I, of course, now use a Fender Blackfaced (original) modified head (44 lbs.) along with a cabinet enclosed, open back 15" D-130F JBL (22 lbs.).
Best regards,
Lloyd Green
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