Where to learn about sound?

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

For anyone getting into steel, there is an incredible wealth of information and instruction. From Winston's book to Jeff Newman's DVD's to YouTube to Skype lessons, you can learn anything you want.

BUT - where does someone who does not have previous experience in a band - on 6-string or such - learn all the nuances and concepts of sound? I dare say there is almost as much to learn, or even more, about sounds and amps and effects as there is about the steel guitar itself.

I have gone to an outdoor jam - about as far from playing in a small room at home as one can get - and had a friend suggest some serious changes in my amp and effects - more of this, back off on that. I know there is no one "right" sound for everybody, but how does one even begin training their ears and their brain on what they should be listening (and adjusting) for?
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 3 Mar 2018 2:36 am

Very difficult to condense this into a few words. Speaking in General terms because this topic is very subjective. Let us assume the average Country and Western music lover, of course this same principle applies to all genre.

Many of us take some technical playing instruction to get started and then begin working on sound and skills on our on. Also, for many of us, we grew up listening to Country radio and without realizing you begin ear training right then.

The process is, in my opinion, hearing good steel guitar work on recordings or live, then going home and attempt to make your playing sound like the player(s) you just heard.

I used to think all I had to do was get the same equipment, effects, amp as everyone else and then I would sound like everyone else. That didn't work.

You have to almost go to an extreme basic rig, guitar, volume pedal, amp. Some say guitar and amp. Use amp reverb to begin with. The rest is experimenting with your hands. After a time you will begin to feel like you are sounding closer and closer to what you have been hearing.

Unfortunately, there are some people that cannot do this due to the fact that not everyone has a sense of relative pitch, tone and such.

This sort of thing can be very sensitive to discuss, because again it is very subjective and relative to each individuals "interpretation" of what they hear.

Quick realtime example. I once worked with a musician who was a technical player. The problem was he didn't have good relative pitch. In other words, he could not play in tune very well. If dissonance bothers you as it does me, this is difficult to relax and play your best when you have to hear a player that cannot stay on pitch. It got dicey. Because I kept going out to the front while the band was playing to determine what was bugging me. I think the guy picked up on what I suspected was wrong. He came near to punching me out. I told him that truth hurts and finally the road manager told him and the other players then finally fessed up that his playing hurt their ears too. The guy quit on the spot. Very sensitive subject.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

While there may be books or even courses on this, I look at it as something like playing baseball, there are no quick studies or shortcuts. You can never really learn it if you don't just immerse yourself in it and do it. I think that most of the education just has to come from experience, and you will refine/change your viewpoints and conceptions as you learn. Countless hours invested in listening, observing, talking with others, and experimenting on your own is probably the only way to know what to use, where to use it, and how to get your own sound the way you want it.

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

Thanks Bill! That DOES help some.

I realize it IS subjective. In my case I'm also dealing with too many years of train horns and boxcar wheels squealing around curves, so I just don't have the ear for precise tuning that some players do. I have had lessons from guys who will sit down at my steel right after I have tuned it with a tuner, and will make slight adjustments to about half the strings before they are happy - and I can't tell a durn bit of difference!

But I'm also wanting to learn more about the various differences when going from my 10x12 foot room to an outdoor pavilion or such. I have gotten some advice from mentors about a couple specific things, but I feel I am lacking in knowledge of basics - how are band sound systems set up in general, how do they vary, what are the various ways my steel can be routed (through their mix, straight from my amp to the audience, etc) and so on.

And stuff like sizing up what type of changes I would need when I get to a place. As an example, my son used to race, on dirt. Before each race we would walk on the track, see how much moisture was in it, how tacky the clay was, etc. This would tell us some general things about our set-up, and we would fine-tune after he had been out for warm-up and as the track changed. You KNEW if the track was dry you would do A, and if it was gooey you would start with B.

So when I go from home to that outdoor pavilion, I now have no walls to bounce sound back. Obviously the overall volume needs to be much higher, but what about reverb? What about delay? More low end, or less? And so on.

Like I said, I'm looking to understand the why as much as the what - I probably don't even know what specific things to ask. Maybe I'm wishing for a "Winnie Winston Book of Sound Theory and Logic" or something, that I could sit and read chapter by chapter to educate myself.

But I DO appreciate what you have said there - it's a help.
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun.

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

Donny, that makes sense. Seat time and experience is the ultimate teacher.

(Altho if there ARE any books on this I'd love to find one, just to speed my learning curve along)
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun.

John Spaulding · From: Wisconsin, USA

This book is a pretty comprehensive study of sound and sound reinforcement.

Click the "Look Inside" text to see the Table of Contents:
[url] https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Gary-Davis/dp/0881889008[/url]

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

John, that looks like it could teach me a lot. My wife is ordering it this morning. Thank you!

_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun.

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

I've been chasing tone for over 30 years, I'll let you know one day when I catch it!
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 3 Mar 2018 11:11 am

Don, For these things I found two solutions. Again this is MY experience only. On big outdoor venues having the ability to create tone for yourself is most certainly, for me, rig related. What helped me was speaker / amp placement and trusting in the sound man. Thats another topic in itself. Because there are professional sound people and then there are club owners or venue promoters who don't have a clue about sound, in that case it usually, in some way, is less than mediocre. Again for my experience, its Head room on the amp, not volume. But on smaller indoor jobs and settings usually, a single Nashville 400 or Session 400, volume pedal, bit of delay and reverb is essentially all I ever needed.

The rest is like "salt and pepper to taste" for lack of a better analogy.

~Bill~

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

Bill, as I said I have a lot to learn (hence this thread). But by head room on the amp, do you mean the amp has more left that you're not using - in other words NOT cranked up to "10"? If not, please enlighten me.

Thanks!
_________________
Many play better than I do. Nobody has more fun.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 3 Mar 2018 11:44 am

Don, yes Headroom is definitely power amp output that is left over. In other words, power amp output has the potential for 200 watts, but your input gain is fairly low to keep volume down. That head room difference, makes a difference in tone, at least to my ears. Where as, if you turn down the master gain, or amp output, then you are decreasing headroom and in my opinion that compromises tone.

Best example I can provide, when I used Evans equipment, the amplifier was always wide open because the output knobs had been fixed so the amp stayed at full potential. The output knobs were on there but not hooked up. The sound people at different places were always trying to "adjust" my sound while my back was turned. I would see those master knobs turned down and silently laugh to myself, because they didn't control anything. I controlled everything from the pre amp (tone control, input gain, effects loop) and that was THE best sounding rig I ever used.

~Bill

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Record yourself playing. There is nothing quite as helpful as hearing what you sound like in the third person. Then trust your ears.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

Jerry Dragon · From: Gate City Va.

"If it sounds good, it is good." Duke Ellington.

Don Kuhn · From: Poetry/Terrell ,Texas, USA

Don that's a good subject you brought up and some good information from Bill and Paul hopefully some more folks will chime in. I'm sure you and I are not the only one's needing a few tips.

Don R Brown · From: Rochester, New York, USA

Don Kuhn · From: Poetry/Terrell ,Texas, USA

Have a safe trip gonna miss your funny replies and like you I started it late in life but love that girl (steel) Very Happy

Kevin Fix · From: Michigan, USA

Tone is a tuff one at times. Some days when I play i don't need to change much in amp settings but the other times I may have to tweek my Lows settings. I am using only NV112, Hilton delay, Hilton Volume Pedal and dobro simulator. I have a Sho Bud Super Pro and the PUP's are a little touchy, can be a little on the bright side. My amp settings are: Lows about 80%, Mids all the way off, Presence all the way off and Highs about 50 to 60%. I put the Fox mods in the NV112 about a year ago. Makes it a little on the bright side.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

An impossible topic to write about briefly. Iâ€™ll try to limit my comment to a few cents.

Midrange is the key. Clarity and punch in the mids - if you can get that, your highs and lows will be just fine.

Get a good clean tone before messing with overdrive and distortion. Set the master high and the preamp/gain low, add gain to just about the breaking up point and adjust the master down if necessary.

Volume effects tone and clarity. Eq knobs can sometimes cause distortion, especially cranked treble.

Effects devices can enhance or degrade tone and overdrive signals.

Speakers...big subject. Place your combo amp behind you, tilted upward toward your head, and slightly askew left or right. You will get a full and fairly accurate idea of what you actually sound like.

Be aware of how the rest of the band is effecting your tone and volume.

Outdoors, indoors, large hall, small club, low ceiling, concrete floors, crowded/not crowded - all thes variables add up and will absolutely have an effect on how you perceive the sound coming from your amp.

An acquaintance of mine named Michael Ross wrote a book called Getting Great Guitar Sounds.. It is a short easy read and has information that could easily be applied to steel.

Ok, I have failed at the brief comment mission. My apologies. Hope it has helped someone anyway.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 4 Mar 2018 6:02 am

Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

The tape recorder is essential to me. I have a little Tascam digital sitting next to me and record every gig. The sound is steel-heavy because it's so close, but it sure shows me when I suck. I have a lot of "do that more" and "never do that again" moments.
I still have difficulty understanding the best tone target for the band. I prefer a full-range "Hi-Fi" sound when I practice - headphones plugged into my effects unit with NO eq sounds fabulous, especially with stereo reverb, but that tone target doesn't work on the bandstand.
I probably need to record the band from further away to get a better sense of what works best in that situation.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc...

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I think live recording is a good idea too, but for a different reason than what the OP seemed to be asking. If you donâ€™t like what you hear when listening to playback, what do you do? Sometimes the playing is fine, but the tone is crap. Knowing what the variables are that contribute to the sound of your rig, and how to adjust accordingly, is hugely important. Plus, there is always a difference between stage sound and front of house sound. Developing an ear for that takes a long time and a lot of trial and error.

Kevin Fix · From: Michigan, USA

I am a Tascam user also. I record when we play out, more myself also just to hear what I should have done and what not to do again. Great little recorder.

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Peavey used to do a traveling seminar, explaining sound, room dynamics, power requirement to frequency spectrum, speaker placement, etc. I took the members of the band I was playing in at the time, to Goldsboro NC, so we could gain as much information as possible and take our live shows to the next level. As it turned out, we were able to get rid of a bunch of gear. Surprisingly mostly older Peavey stuff. I don't know if they do those gigs anymore, but I was glad they did at that time. Very informative...

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic