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Topic: Moving pedals from C6 to.E9 |
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 4:55 am |
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Disclaimer: I still don't see this clearly, but I'm beginning to.
On my Carter D10 8x5:
I'm seeing a change or two that I wish I had on the E9 neck, but I don't want to give up any that are there.
I don't use the A6 neck nearly as much as I expected to, and mostly without pedals, playing songs I already know from my lap steel days.
Is there any reason I shouldn't swap the 4 pedal over from C6 to E9? My E9 changer has open holes on every finger.
Thanks,
Jeff
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 5:00 am
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| There is no reason, mechanically, why you cannot utilize any pedal or lever in any available changer hole, as long as you can route the rods so as to not interfere with one another. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 5:02 am
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If you can obtain the parts, you can have both E9 and C6 changes on that pedal.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 6:45 am
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
| If you can obtain the parts, you can have both E9 and C6 changes on that pedal. |
Good point, and thanks.
I believe that parts are available for my Carter. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 1:19 pm Re: Moving pedals from C6 to.E9
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You can get new Carter parts from Al Brisco at Steel Guitars Canada. There is a $40 order minimum.
http://www.steelguitarscanada.com/
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
Disclaimer: I still don't see this clearly, but I'm beginning to.
On my Carter D10 8x5:
I'm seeing a change or two that I wish I had on the E9 neck,... |
Jeff, can you say more about that? What changes are you considering? Given the beauty of the design of the typical 3x5 setup on E9, and the fact that you're starting out, it's possible that you'll (later) realize that there are easy ways to get what you're looking for without adding a side-attachment to the wheel. So... what change would you put on that 4th pedal?
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 1:56 pm Re: Moving pedals from C6 to.E9
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
You can get new Carter parts from Al Brisco at Steel Guitars Canada. There is a $40 order minimum.
http://www.steelguitarscanada.com/
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
Disclaimer: I still don't see this clearly, but I'm beginning to.
On my Carter D10 8x5:
I'm seeing a change or two that I wish I had on the E9 neck,... |
Hi, Jeff. Can you say more about that? What changes are you considering? Given the beauty of the design of the typical 3x5 setup on E9, and the fact that you're starting out, it's possible that you'll (later) realize that there are easy ways to get what you're looking for without adding a side-attachment to the wheel. So... what change would you put on that 4th pedal?
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If I do it I think I'll add the changes to the RKL lever, which lowers string 4 on C6 (A6 on my guitar.) I don't think it should add much effort.
It occurred to me my feet are already busy at the time in question.
I would like to be able to slam a flatted 7th into a sustaining chord (what many ppl call a Dom 7th) when playing an AB pedal IV chord or V chord. Several people assured me it's here, but I don't see it.
Say for instance I'm playing a C chord at the 3rd fret w/ A&B down. I'd need a Bb, flatted 7th to C. I'm not seeing it here.
My RKL flats both my Bs, but I'm already raising one to a C to form the chord, and I can't play the C without it.
The same thing happens when I want to play a D7 ( still speaking in terms of key of G here, A&B pedals, up 2 frets).
My LKL flats both Es, strings 4&8. My RKL flats both B's, 5 & 10. In each case I need to flat one but keep the other one for the desired chord.
I understand I can simulate it with chord fragments. I've been simulating 7ths for years on lap steel with bar slants. I can live with it but I'd rather not if I can get out of it.
Maybe I'm not seeing something. I think slow - I am a traumatic brain injury survivor.
Jeff
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 3:46 pm
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Got it.
A couple of thoughts.
You might be a candidate to raise your 1st string to G. That would give you the flatted-7 tone in a straight pedals-down chord. To try it out, you can just retune the nylon nut. You can also raise your 7th string to G on the same lever. It's a common solution for a lot of people. You should go for it, but it's only going to work along with AB if you put it on a knee lever.
Having said that.... do you use three fingerpicks (in addition to your thumb)? Most of us only use two fingerpicks, so when playing a 4-note chord, like a 7th, we're usually only playing two or three of the notes in that chord anyway. Partial chords are where it's at, even on pedal steel. If you've spent time loving E9 pedal steel parts on recordings... that's what you're usually hearing when there's a 7th chord. Often, it's just two notes out of four.
Even if all 4 notes are under the bar, you'll find that it usually blends so much better with a band if you only hit a two-note harmony, rather than a full three- or four-note chord. Assuming, of course, it works musically and you can get away with it. I'm always looking to play fewer notes in a chord, not fully represent everything.
Anyway, in your example of playing the D7 (a V7 in key of G), working in the open pocket, I would play that in the 3rd fret, with the B-pedal and lowering E's. You mentioned doing it 'sustaining'.... if you were on, say, the C chord before that, you could smoothly make the move to the D7 while the strings were still ringing. Sounds great. Or you start D, 5th fret pedals-down, and slide down into that D7 position. Really, moving to that position while sustaining works fine from any other chord on the 'open E' strings.
Yes, that B-pedal/E-lower position is missing one note out of the full 4-note chord -- the 5th interval -- which is the least important note here. It so expendable. You probably don't have enough picks to play all four notes anyway. And I promise you, not one in a hundred listeners will know (or care) that one note wasn't represented. But if you are that hundredth person, you could just put on another pick and reach up and hit the 1st string to get all 4 notes in that position. Me? I use two fingerpicks, so I arpeggiate in that situation, and that works too. No re-rodding of the guitar required. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2018 9:09 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
Got it.
A couple of thoughts.
You might be a candidate to raise your 1st string to G. That would give you the flatted-7 tone in a straight pedals-down chord. To try it out, you can just retune the nylon nut. You can also raise your 7th string to G on the same lever. It's a common solution for a lot of people. You should go for it, but it's only going to work along with AB if you put it on a knee lever. |
I have that on my RKR. I haven't stumbled onto it giving me a 7th although I think b0b tried to tell me it would. I sometimes grasp things slowly, I'll give it another try.
| Quote: |
| Having said that.... do you use three fingerpicks (in addition to your thumb)? Most of us only use two fingerpicks, so when playing a 4-note chord, like a 7th, we're usually only playing two or three of the notes in that chord anyway. |
Yes, I use thumb plus three. I started a thread about it a few days ago and a surprising number of respondents said they did too.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=327893
I have always used three fingers, including when I played 6 string. I play Celtic harp and use thumb + 3 on that too. My teacher, an internationally respected harper, encouraged my to go with my preference, but thumb + 2 is the historic norm for harpers too.
| Quote: |
Partial chords are where it's at, even on pedal steel. If you've spent time loving E9 pedal steel parts on recordings... that's what you're usually hearing when there's a 7th chord. Often, it's just two notes out of four.
Even if all 4 notes are under the bar, you'll find that it usually blends so much better with a band if you only hit a two-note harmony, rather than a full three- or four-note chord. Assuming, of course, it works musically and you can get away with it. I'm always looking to play fewer notes in a chord, not fully represent everything. |
A lot of my playing is alone, for my own pleasure. I do play with a far-sticks country town band, in VFW halls and broken down bars from time to time, but that's typically only a dozen or sixteen times a year. At home I improvise a lot. I assign myself a chord progression, or maybe just a key, and I work within it. When I do that I'm not just noodling: I have a melody line running in my head, a little ways ahead of my fingers, and I'm trying to duplicate it in real time. I play probably 80% single note melodies, and fill in with intervals, major and minor chords, and such extended chords as I comprehend. The pedal steel is brand new to me - two weeks tomorrow - so it has opened up vast new horizons. Before this I was playing a 7 string home made C6 lap steel, and E9 with pedals is wonderful. I'm not trying to stuff 4 string 7th chords into the band - we're mostly a vocal band, 4 people, all sing from time to time, semi-hollow-body 12 string rhythm, keyboard, bass, and me on steels as whatever it is I do, including a lot of support, background, and "take it" leads in some of the songs. But I'm not The Big Deal, I'm just one person.
We play country town old people bar music - 50s through 80s rock-and-roll and airplay country, Chuck Berry, Beatles, Rolling Stones, Merle Haggard, Hank Sr., Van Morrison, historic blues - whatever suits us and the crowd. I don't sound like a pedal steel player, I just play guitar and chose the pedal steel as a vehicle. It turned out that lap steels lead to stronger stuff.
| Quote: |
Anyway, in your example of playing the D7 (a V7 in key of G), working in the open pocket, I would play that in the 3rd fret, with the B-pedal and lowering E's. You mentioned doing it 'sustaining'.... if you were on, say, the C chord before that, you could smoothly make the move to the D7 while the strings were still ringing. Sounds great. Or you start D, 5th fret pedals-down, and slide down into that D7 position. Really, moving to that position while sustaining works fine from any other chord on the 'open E' strings.
Yes, that B-pedal/E-lower position is missing one note out of the full 4-note chord -- the 5th interval -- which is the least important note here. It so expendable. You probably don't have enough picks to play all four notes anyway. And I promise you, not one in a hundred listeners will know (or care) that one note wasn't represented. But if you are that hundredth person, you could just put on another pick and reach up and hit the 1st string to get all 4 notes in that position. Me? I use two fingerpicks, so I arpeggiate in that situation, and that works too. No re-rodding of the guitar required. |
I appreciate your advice, and I'll try to figure out what you're telling my about the D on the 3rd fret - while I think slow, I'm not stupid. It just takes me longer than most people to get through new things. Brain damage is weird - I have a lust to understand things, but it takes a while for me to get there. I don't wanna make excuses or sound like a crybaby, but I do know that my innate denseness sometimes makes people want to scream. 
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 8:35 am
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| Quote: |
Tucker Jackson wrote:
Got it.
A couple of thoughts.
You might be a candidate to raise your 1st string to G. That would give you the flatted-7 tone in a straight pedals-down chord. To try it out, you can just retune the nylon nut. You can also raise your 7th string to G on the same lever. It's a common solution for a lot of people. You should go for it, but it's only going to work along with AB if you put it on a knee lever.
I have that on my RKR. I haven't stumbled onto it giving me a 7th although I think b0b tried to tell me it would. I sometimes grasp things slowly, I'll give it another try. |
That first string (and 7th) raise to G is the 7th (b7) of an A chord (A & B pedals down at the open fret). Raising the 7th string to G will give you a 4 note chord using strings 4,5,6,and 7, and you could even add string 3 for a 5 note 7th chord. To do that, you would have to "rake" the 7th and 6th strings to free up your other 3 picks. You can even get the 4 note chord on strings 6,7,8,10.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:11 am Re: Moving pedals from C6 to.E9
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
Say for instance I'm playing a C chord at the 3rd fret w/ A&B down. I'd need a Bb, flatted 7th to C. |
Here are some ways to do it without adding a knee lever to raise string 1 or 7.
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 11:43 am
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| ...while I think slow... |
Since you're new, this may not be clear yet: all us mortal-type pedal steelers struggle all the time with a rotating list of various aspects of playing this beast. It's really difficult, and it never ends! It's a life-long learning thing -- but it's still fun as we stumble and fumble along through the years.
Based on your posts, you seem to be learning all this faster than most. Feel free to drop any mental barricade and embrace the progress you've already made. You're doing really well and can hang with any newbie! Seriously. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 8:42 am
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What everyone is telling you about the raise on 1 & 7 is Bible.
With A&B down in the open position you have a standard grip A major (10-8-6-5-4-3).
*AND* if you add string 7 and 1, you have an A6 chord (or F# m7), 10-8-7-6-5-4-3-1
So, the half step raise on 1& 7 gets you a big beautiful 8-string A7.
Your questions are an indicator of your progress. Pretty soon you’ll be answering the questions of other noobs. Go Jerry, Go Jerry... |
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