| Author |
Topic: Writing an orginal instrumental song on pedal steel |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 25 Feb 2018 4:20 pm |
|
Does anyone have experience writing an instrumental song on pedal steel where the steel is the featured instrument and is written first? To get an idea of what I'm talking about think Bruce Kaphan, Daniel Lanois, and Japancakes. Here are some examples:
https://youtu.be/KtyAyXHcq8g
https://youtu.be/3szJIkmzpMM
https://youtu.be/hGwriZJAjFU
I'm working on a songwriting project with another person where I'm supplying the base track. I record the steel over a click track first and then he'll take inspiration and guidance from it to arrange the other instruments.
What I've been doing so far is deciding what key it's going to be in, deciding the rhythm and time signature, picking a 'feel' for the song, and then coming up with pedal steel phrases that flow together.
Where it's causing big headaches for me is reconciling how my ear wants the phrases to flow and how they need to be to keep the structure of the song intact. For example, my ear may want the chord of the phrase to change on the 4th beat of the measure instead of the 1st. Another example is having a part of the song (like the equivalent of verse) end prematurely by one measure.
I don't know enough about music composition to know how far I can push it with having the steel moving in a staggered fashion to the rest of the arrangement or otherwise messing with the overall symmetry of the song. Simultaneously, I don't know if my songwriting partner can arrange the other instruments to fill in awkward spaces that will be created if I make the phrases flow strictly within the structure of the song.
Is there any good methodology for writing songs this way? I'm attached to the idea of having the song revolve around the pedal steel phrases instead of vice versa, because I feel that deliberate, thoughtful phrasing is what would make the song worth listening to. |
|
|
 |
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 25 Feb 2018 11:56 pm
|
|
Theme and variation - 2 bar phrasing, 4 bar phrasing. Get a melody. Mood, groove, and space. Form - ABAB, AABA, AABABC, etc. Repeat something, give the listener a chance to hear what you’re trying to say. By the way, have something to say, even if it is an instrumental.
Instrumentals should either be short, or feature more than one instrument, or otherwise have plenty of variety. Throw in a cool bass riff or percussion fill to connect one section to another. Go into half time on the bridge. Something.
The thing about the composers you mention is they tend to throw out the rules. But they did learn them first. |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 1:51 am
|
|
yes, over the last few years I have written and tracked a few. As stated , it's really no different than writing a song with lyrics, the melody lines on the instruments are the lyrics.
What is important is to maintain a theme, it's not about licks, it's about the melody line and theme of the song. It's not about how experienced a player we may be or how novice we may be, it's about the song. IF we lose sight of that then it's no different than writing a song with odd lyrics , there is no story to tell.
Here is a track I wrote 3 years ago , unfortunately it was for a celebration of life ceremony for a close friend who passed who I worked with for 25 years. It was used at a work conference where they spent 15 or 20 minutes to celebrate his life with a photo slide presentation , the track was used as a backup to the photo's. It's also a good idea to add another Instrument or two for balance. Just like a song with lyrics.
PARADISE , it's a point, counterpoint piece , Acoustic guitars and Pedal Steel.
https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/tonyprior
copyright 2015 ASCAP affiliated
This song along with two others have been picked up by a so called internet record company which offers internet play lists. So far I've made about $12 ! Thats for all 3 songs ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
Jack Hargraves
From:
Missouri, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 8:42 am
|
|
I'm doing the same thing. It works well for me. the finished product is quite good.
_________________
GFI Expo SD10, Nashville 112, Steelers choice Pak-a- seat, Carter vol. pedal, Stage one vol. pedal, Peavey Deltafex. Goodrich volume pedal. |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 9:41 am
|
|
| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I usually start with a chord pattern and build a melody around it. Here’s an original I wrote for B11 tuning, lap steel. I wanted to take advantage of the tuning’s rich 9th chords and come up with something exotic sounding. I start with a chord progression, make a band-in-a-box practice track and play along with it, looking for an interesting melody. ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6KQC3A2t60
Here’s an original tune for pedal steel guitar I put together. Again, the chords came first. The head is a standard speedpicking pattern and the rest of the song is melody built around the chord pattern. ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcmd6ZJTrQo |
Doug you're killin' me ! thats some great stuff right there ! Love that half Emmons ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 9:43 am
|
|
| Thanks for your comments! It sounds like you're saying that until I become really proficient at composition, that I should sit down and determine the entire song structure before I come up with the pedal steel phrases - instead of coming up with the phrases and then altering them to conform to the song structure. I own Band-in-a-box, so that shouldn't be too tough. |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 9:44 am
|
|
| Tony Prior wrote: |
| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I usually start with a chord pattern and build a melody around it. Here’s an original I wrote for B11 tuning, lap steel. I wanted to take advantage of the tuning’s rich 9th chords and come up with something exotic sounding. I start with a chord progression, make a band-in-a-box practice track and play along with it, looking for an interesting melody. ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6KQC3A2t60
Here’s an original tune for pedal steel guitar I put together. Again, the chords came first. The head is a standard speedpicking pattern and the rest of the song is melody built around the chord pattern. ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcmd6ZJTrQo |
Doug you're killin' me ! thats some great stuff right there ! Love that half Emmons ! |
Agreed. Thanks to both of your for sharing your work. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 10:29 am
|
|
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| Thanks for your comments! It sounds like you're saying that until I become really proficient at composition, that I should sit down and determine the entire song structure before I come up with the pedal steel phrases - instead of coming up with the phrases and then altering them to conform to the song structure. I own Band-in-a-box, so that shouldn't be too tough. |
Short answer, no.
In your OP, you asked if there was a method. There is, and it’s called the “songcraft†approach. I have a book called The Craft And Business Of Songwriting that goes into the method in great detail. The inspiration approach is when you noodle around with a riff that just popped into your head and you decide to compose around it. Both approaches are perfectly legitimate, and often overlap.
Sometimes the whole composition comes to you in your head in 5 minutes, other times parts start revealing themselves only after you start writing and tracking. Tunes can develop over days and weeks. Form follows function, both in architecture and in music composition. If you decide on form first, then, as you said, you have to conform your function to it....  |
|
|
|
James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 12:34 pm
|
|
Hello Curt,
I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the mix. First let me say I can't write Music, nor can I read it, but I can compose. In doing so, I try to get away from what has gone before, I don't see any point in trying to sound Hawaiianish, Countryis or Bluesy, it has all been done before and better than I can do it, nor do I see the point in buying song writing books that lead me down the 3 or 4 chord trick route formula writing.
I don't know much about the three people you gave as a guide, but it looks like they don't follow the well trodden path either. I like the sounds a Steel Guitar can make, pedal or non pedal and everything has to revolve round that, I add in other Instruments to compliment that sound.
You can see and hear what I am doing here +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_gjP_mjGM
No Band in a Box.
This one has more structure but again, is more concerned with the sound those strings make.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm43BMRWCMU
James. |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 1:13 pm
|
|
| James Kerr wrote: |
Hello Curt,
I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the mix. First let me say I can't write Music, nor can I read it, but I can compose. In doing so, I try to get away from what has gone before, I don't see any point in trying to sound Hawaiianish, Countryis or Bluesy, it has all been done before and better than I can do it, nor do I see the point in buying song writing books that lead me down the 3 or 4 chord trick route formula writing.
I don't know much about the three people you gave as a guide, but it looks like they don't follow the well trodden path either. I like the sounds a Steel Guitar can make, pedal or non pedal and everything has to revolve round that, I add in other Instruments to compliment that sound.
You can see and hear what I am doing here +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_gjP_mjGM
No Band in a Box.
This one has more structure but again, is more concerned with the sound those strings make.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm43BMRWCMU
James. |
I'm pretty sure that the guy I'm working with is on your wavelength, James. He just wants to build a track around some neat pedal steel sounds. I don't feel a need to have melody... just some common themes or movements to give at least minimal coherence to it.
For structure, instead of verses, I'm more in the mindset of movements - in the classical music sense of the word. The way I've been approaching the structure problem so far is to precede and follow the complex pedal steel phrases with slow, sparse parts to make up the slack. I have no idea if it will actually make for a pleasant overall song though.
I'm pretty sure my songwriting partner will feel free to chop up my track and rearrange it if it is too unwieldy for him to arrange around.
Last edited by Curt Trisko on 26 Feb 2018 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 4:29 pm
|
|
| Funnily enough, I have listened to pop music for so long now, when I go back to listening to classical I often hear it as a verse-chorus-bridge type of arrangement with various recurring themes, variations, and interludes. |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2018 5:44 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| ...when I go back to listening to classical I often hear it as a verse-chorus-bridge type of arrangement with various recurring themes, variations, and interludes. |
I've noticed that in classical music too. The first section states a theme, and following section(s) are different, sometimes slower, and the last section restates the theme, sometimes at a faster tempo.
Regarding songwriting in general, there is no one right way to do it. Some writers start with a melody, some start with chords, and some start with lyrics!
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 27 Feb 2018 1:45 am
|
|
Curt it's not a bad idea to listen to a few dozen simple Haggard or Buck tunes, simple writings that repeat a verse and/or a chorus. The structures are very similar thru most of the songs, the melody lines may be totally different.
Listen and understand the format.
These writers didn't re-invent the wheel when writing, the format is the same, they may have modified it somewhat but they stuck to the original format.
Jazz guys may use something like a 1-6-2-5 structure for a basic song concept, but even they will stick to the outline and return to / or repeat the theme .
It's kinda like a beginning, a middle and then return to the beginning again. We may play a little bit different over those sections but the sections are exactly the same. It doesn't much matter what genre the music is .
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2018 7:31 am
|
|
| Tony Prior wrote: |
Curt it's not a bad idea to listen to a few dozen simple Haggard or Buck tunes, simple writings that repeat a verse and/or a chorus. The structures are very similar thru most of the songs, the melody lines may be totally different.
Listen and understand the format.
These writers didn't re-invent the wheel when writing, the format is the same, they may have modified it somewhat but they stuck to the original format.
Jazz guys may use something like a 1-6-2-5 structure for a basic song concept, but even they will stick to the outline and return to / or repeat the theme .
It's kinda like a beginning, a middle and then return to the beginning again. We may play a little bit different over those sections but the sections are exactly the same. It doesn't much matter what genre the music is . |
As of now, the song structure I have in mind is:
1) brief introduction
2) the phrase that is the theme of the song
3) slow, simple interlude building up to...
4) a variation of the phrase from '2'
5) another slow, simple interlude
6) a phrase to resolve the first 'movement' (the song so far) and transition it to the next 'movement'
7) a phrase to introduce the next 'movement and build tension
a phrase culminating in a skewed variation of the thematic phrase
9) that's all I have so far but the final part should probably contain a near verbatim restatement of the thematic phrase.
Thinking in terms like that is easy for me. It's conforming it to the time signature and correct number of measures that causes headaches. Musical phrases don't have the same punch if even the smallest things about their rhythm and timing are changed.
For chord structure, I'm taking the chance that as long as I stick to chords in the same key, that my songwriting partner will either take a drone approach to the rest of the arrangement or will otherwise be able to accommodate it. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2018 8:45 am
|
|
| Tony Prior wrote: |
Curt it's not a bad idea to listen to a few dozen simple Haggard or Buck tunes, simple writings that repeat a verse and/or a chorus. The structures are very similar thru most of the songs, the melody lines may be totally different.
Listen and understand the format. . |
I agree with this 100%. I don’t think you can be a good writer without first being a good reader, nor a good composer without first being a good listener.
I’ll stop there, since other than that we’re all giving basically the same advice.. |
|
|
|
Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2018 9:17 am
|
|
Curt, have you ever heard "The Wylie Butler" album by Cal Hand? Several unique original instrumentals that follow the approach you describe. Definitely worth a listen if you can find a copy.
 |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2018 8:25 pm
|
|
| Jack Hanson wrote: |
Curt, have you ever heard "The Wylie Butler" album by Cal Hand? Several unique original instrumentals that follow the approach you describe. Definitely worth a listen if you can find a copy.
|
I haven't and I only found one song from there on YouTube: 'They Only Moved The Stage'. I'm happy I listened to it, but what I want to do is less ambient. Do you know where I can find other tracks from that album online? |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 27 Feb 2018 8:38 pm
|
|
| Tony Prior wrote: |
Curt it's not a bad idea to listen to a few dozen simple Haggard or Buck tunes, simple writings that repeat a verse and/or a chorus. The structures are very similar thru most of the songs, the melody lines may be totally different.
Listen and understand the format.
These writers didn't re-invent the wheel when writing, the format is the same, they may have modified it somewhat but they stuck to the original format.
Jazz guys may use something like a 1-6-2-5 structure for a basic song concept, but even they will stick to the outline and return to / or repeat the theme .
It's kinda like a beginning, a middle and then return to the beginning again. We may play a little bit different over those sections but the sections are exactly the same. It doesn't much matter what genre the music is . |
Merle Haggard is probably my favorite musical hero and Buck Owens is one of the greats who got me to start listening to classic country to begin with. I can make the counterpoint that the reason Merle Haggard was able to do so much with so little, musically speaking (i.e. simple chord formulas, simple song structures) is because of his phenomenal phrasing and storytelling. You can't tell a story like that on pedal steel, so that gives paramount importance to phrasing.
I'll also stir the pot by saying that I don't think pedal steel is typically best used by flat out playing a melody. I'd like to try to simultaneously play or imply chords, melody, harmony, and counter-melody. If it's an instrumental song and if the pedal steel is the featured instrument, why not give the listener a full appreciation for what the instrument is capable of? |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 28 Feb 2018 2:25 am
|
|
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
Merle Haggard was able to do so much with so little, musically speaking (i.e. simple chord formulas, simple song structures) is because of his phenomenal phrasing and storytelling. You can't tell a story like that on pedal steel, so that gives paramount importance to phrasing.
I'll also stir the pot by saying that I don't think pedal steel is typically best used by flat out playing a melody. I'd like to try to simultaneously play or imply chords, melody, harmony, and counter-melody. If it's an instrumental song and if the pedal steel is the featured instrument, why not give the listener a full appreciation for what the instrument is capable of? |
really ?
Curt I think you are diving into the shallow end...
Are you saying the great instrumental masters don't have emotion ? Pick an Instrument . It's the player, the instrument is just the means to an end. There are so many great master Steel players who have captured incredible instrumentals on record. Performances that will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Those guys ( or gals) performances are why the rest of us sit at home burning the candle late at night.
you may need to get out more !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 28 Feb 2018 4:53 am
|
|
| Tony Prior wrote: |
really ?
Curt I think you are diving into the shallow end...
Are you saying the great instrumental masters don't have emotion ? Pick an Instrument . It's the player, the instrument is just the means to an end. There are so many great master Steel players who have captured incredible instrumentals on record. Performances that will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Those guys ( or gals) performances are why the rest of us sit at home burning the candle late at night.
you may need to get out more ! |
I am not saying that the great instrumental masters don't have emotion. I'm saying that I want to avoid focusing on a melody because I don't think that's what the pedal steel does best... and I think I can persuade you that that is a valid thing to say.
For example, take this instrumental version of "Wichita Lineman" by Buddy Emmons:
https://youtu.be/T23Z1e8UnPM
It's great and I love it, but to me the least compelling part is when he dwells on the melody. If I had to guess, I'd say that he only did that because he felt it was necessary in order to keep the song recognizable.
And then on the other hand, here's a video of me playing over an instrumental version of Neil Young's "Harvest Moon" which was arranged by a lap steel player:
https://youtu.be/2PIJUwao1Bg
It fills different roles in the arrangement at different points in the song and only plays the melody when it's most poignant. I think it's a fine use of steel guitar. I can understand if this is a controversial opinion, but that's fine and I enjoy conversations like these on here because where else can we do this? |
|
|
|
Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
|
Posted 28 Feb 2018 6:28 am
|
|
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| Do you know where I can find other tracks from that album online? |
Sorry Curt, I have no idea. The LPs do show up on eBay from time to time and Amazon usually has one or two for sale.
Another option would be to contact Cal and see if he has any available. Last I heard he was still in South Minneapolis. |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 28 Feb 2018 6:29 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I want to avoid focusing on a melody because I don't think that's what the pedal steel does best... |
hmm... Great instrumentals feature great melodies, regardless of what instrument they are played on. Listeners respond to and remember the melody. You seem to be saying that you want to play background fills entirely, as an instrumental...? I don't think the average listener would respond to that. It's like a Thanksgiving dinner of gravy only, no turkey, no potatoes. Just my opinion.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 28 Feb 2018 7:40 am
|
|
| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I want to avoid focusing on a melody because I don't think that's what the pedal steel does best... |
hmm... Great instrumentals feature great melodies, regardless of what instrument they are played on. Listeners respond to and remember the melody. You seem to be saying that you want to play background fills entirely, as an instrumental...? I don't think the average listener would respond to that. It's like a Thanksgiving dinner of gravy only, no turkey, no potatoes. Just my opinion. |
Good point, but not sure I agree in this context. My songwriting partner wants me to make the steel guitar track first because he wants the song to be steel-centric. First and foremost, I'd like to compose it on a phrase-by-phrase basis if I can manage it... and the way I hear phrases on steel guitar in the absence of other instruments is to fill musical space by alternating playing and implying the different parts of an arrangement (melody, harmony, counter-melody, etc.). I don't want the pedal steel part to sound like a steel guitar adaptation of a non-steel song, which in my opinion rarely capture the best aspects of either the original song or the steel guitar. |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
