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Topic: Why do strings go bad? |
Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2005 12:38 pm |
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Im not talking about strings breaking, that will always happen...
I am asking why do strings actually loose the luster and tone after time,,inotation goes south,,why? is it because the string changes diameter because of wear ?
Ive even herd the metal properties of the string change over time because of vibration.
Could it be dirty strings ? If so ,why does a plain steel string wiped clean as a whistle still loose the luster & tone ?
Curious minds want to know |
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Bob Martin
From:
Madison Tn
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Posted 31 Aug 2005 2:24 pm
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Oh my Richard, the question you pose has many answers but here are a few reasons for string death that I know of.
First of all when you wipe a string off it never really gets clean all you do is wipe off some of the grime and grit off of the outside.
Second strings do get small spots in them from playing and streching that reduces the easiness of tuning and harmonics.
Third if you ever noticed strings last longer for some people than others and it because some of us have different chemicals/oils in our body that affect string life and along the same line have you ever noticed that strings stay brighter longer at home in a non smoking environment? Also strings last longer if you wash your hands before each use. So cleanliness is a big factor in string life and also have you ever noticed that wound strings go dead before plain strings yep you guessed it the wrapped strings get oil and chemicals and dirt underneath the wrappings that you can't clean off.
I'm sure that this is just a small amount of things that affect the life of a string and I look forward to reading other ideas about the life of strings.
Bob |
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Steve Hitsman
From:
Waterloo, IL
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Posted 31 Aug 2005 3:51 pm
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| They were neglected by their parents? Oh, no! I'm channeling Jimbeaux again! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 Aug 2005 4:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...why does a plain steel string wiped clean as a whistle still loose the luster & tone ? |
Wiping a string off only removes dirt and oils, it doesn't remove rust or corrosion. Strings are made from music wire, which is made from plain tempered steel. They're polished at the manufacturer, but when a string begins to look dull, it usually sounds dull too! Acids from perspiration gradually etch the surface, causing microscopic roughness, which increases surface area, which traps even more dirt and perspiration, and the whole thing snowballs until that bright clear sound is a dull "thunk".
Intonation goes sour because the diameter doesn't remain uniform. Continued use stretches, corrodes, and wears the string in the lowers frets (where most of the bar work is done). |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 1:44 am
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very subjective too..
Some folks claim they PLAY a LOT and there strings last forever...
Some folks actually PLAY a LOT and the strings do not last forever...
Listen to your strings without an amp....
Even the string knows when it's dead....
t |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 2:06 am
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"Even the string knows when it's dead...."
Hey Tony, I didn't know you was into that Zen stuff!!!
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Curt Langston
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 3:47 am
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| High tension stress causes molecular changes. |
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Chuck McGill
From:
An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 3:52 am
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Stephen is right.At a state fair gig I saw an
Elvis impersonator standing backstage in full Elvis costume,getting into character when a little black girl with a cotton candy as big as she was walked up,tapped him on the knee and said"Elvis. You
know you dead". and walked away. Sorry for the rant. Stephen's post just reminded me. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 6:00 am
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It is written that adversity builds character. Wouldn't you "go bad" if your life was filled with...
Abuse
Neglect
Wear and Tear
Stress, Strain, Being in a continuous state of Tension, always being picked on, constantly being hit-on, being struck frequently, sometimes being slapped, Being pulled in many directions, always being stretched to the limit (i.e. an .010 string 3), sometimes being all wound up, being wound too tight, never getting to relax,
Come to think of it, it's a good thing PSG's can't hire lawyers.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 01 September 2005 at 07:26 AM.] |
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 7:45 am
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From the standpoint of physics, the string loses its ability to produce overtones due to changes in its "modulus of elasticity" (also known as "Young's Modulus") which results from the string having been stretched. When this occurs, we say the string has exceeded its "proportional limit." When the string has exceeded its proportional limit, it can no longer produce overtones, thus it does not sound "live" and we say it goes "dead" because it can only produce the fundamental frequency. (The overtones add that live "ringing" sound to the string.)
In general terms, the modulus of elasticity (usually designated as "E") relates stress to strain for a linear elastic material. i.e.,
stress = E * strain
(Yes, even though guitar strings are made of metal, they are still "linear elastic materials".)
(Now, sit back and watch the flames this one precipitates!)
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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.
[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 01 September 2005 at 09:11 AM.] |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 8:11 am
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| Quote: |
| changes in its "modulus of elasticity" |
localized changes in the molecular/crystalline matrix due to stress and resultant strain (localized creep) lead to further non-homogeneity and strain hardening.
What's really neat is that the yield strength of a strand is a function of it's diameter. The yield strength of a .004 mandolin string can be 450,000 psi (versus a good old building I beam's material at maybe 65,000 psi). String breakage is just that point where the material behaviour changed to non-linear elastic  [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 01 September 2005 at 09:15 AM.] |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 8:46 am
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For sure, I can draw a conclusion from this discussion:
Since at least some of these factors are uncontrollable, a steel string will eventually (shall we say?) die.
But, how shall we define death (when applied to steel strings) __ when it no longer produces overtones? It still vibrates; so is it totally dead?
When a human dies, death is defined as the point at which the brain has been cut off from blood flow long enough for the brain to die. Every human who has ever died, died from a lack of blood flow to the brain __ no exceptions.
If I determine that my steel guitar strings no longer produce overtones, and I remove them, and string-up my tennis racket with them, and they are "more lively" than my conventional grid of racket strings; may I then conclude that my steel guitar strings have been reincarnated?
Roy, in your formula, you use the upper case E to represent elasticity. Albert Einstein used the E to represent energy. In my research, as I seek ways of how a steel string may retain its elastic energy, how should I designate elastic energy in my formuls __ Ee, eE, ee, or just EE.
As ever; just seeking information.
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 9:26 am
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Not my formula. It can be credited to a couple of guys from years past -- namely Hooke (Hooke's Law) and Young (Young's Modulus.) I wasn't trying to be a smart alec; I was trying to explain a physical principal in lay terms. If I'm wrong in someone's opinion, then that person has my permission to consider me wrong -- but that's my story and I'n stickin' to it.
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Mr. Tipple started this thread with a reasonable question. I attempted a resonable answer. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.
[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 01 September 2005 at 10:32 AM.] |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 9:44 am
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You did good Roy!
Hook
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www.HookMoore.com
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 10:15 am
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| Roy, I say you did good too...! We've covered here why strings break. But, nobody has mentioned why they break at the worst possible moment... Like at the steel break for the first tune in the set. Don't forget Mr. Murphy. |
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Joe Drivdahl
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 10:38 am
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Ok, but why do strings lose their luster just sitting around? I (usually) never have too many strings on hand at any given time because as they age (in the package) they seem to lose their brightness. I recently broke my rule however. Musian's friend had a great deal on Ernie Ball .011s. I bought 11 packs of 6 - 66 strings in all. I wonder how long they will last?
Uh oh. I've got three sixes in a row up there. I wonder what that might mean?  [This message was edited by Joe Drivdahl on 01 September 2005 at 11:41 AM.] |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 11:49 am
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| Joe, You may loose your tone and then break strings in an "apocaliptic manner". So now, given that you are allegedly jinxed, it's now ok for you to "give up" and eat KFC before playing. |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 11:54 am
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Why do strings go bad? They probably had a bad influence in their family like part of the set was once a couple of banjo strings.
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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Hilton pedal, Jag Wire Strings
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 3:43 pm
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Roy and All,
...just trying to interject some humor into the thread __ with no intention of demeaning the subject. All posts contain valuable information.
Using the term "death" for something that has never been alive is quite common. We all (myself included) do it.
A lot of factors devalue the properties of steel strings.
Rick |
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 4:43 pm
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Rick,
I picked up on your treatise about death of a string. (Even the Dead Sea ain't really dead.)
If we really want to use a descriptive term, when a string loses its ability to sustain overtones, we could say it's "sick." In fact, the guy who sold me my first steel guitaar told me it was a "sick string lap steel."
(It's OK to groan now)
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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 5:21 pm
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Uhh...sorry guys. I don't buy all the stuff about molecular changes due to stretching, some modulus of elasticity, or whatever. Music wire is made to be stretched! That's what it was designed for! Mere age also has little to do with a string's demise.
(Ahem.)
I still contend that the main reason for a string's demise is rust and corrosion, rust and corrosion that's caused primarily by contact with our hands!
And, if you don't believe that...
then maybe you can tell me why they only restring a piano every hundred years or so?  |
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Joe Drivdahl
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 6:16 pm
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Donny,
Piano strings are never touched by human hands, or any other hands except maybe the piano tuner's. So therefore, no greasy fingerprints. Also, they sustain very little stretch. Can you bend a piano string?
Also I have had strings go bad just by sitting around too long. They aren't rusted, they are just old, and therefore, have lost their luster just like me. I won't pretend to be able to explain it but it has happened.
Joe |
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Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 7:34 pm
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| Well I think I have a better understanding of why strings go bad now, thanks to all |
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Larry Hicks
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2005 9:13 pm
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Roy,
As you know, you and I RARELY break strings (on topic) because we both own Excel Superbs!
However, I'm pretty sure that this "modulus of elasticity" thing is what's happening to my knees!
LH
(glad you're okay!) |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 2 Sep 2005 12:48 am
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| Another reason pianos get restrung every hundred years or so is it's a real pain in the a**. |
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