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Topic: Transcribing Tips and tricks |
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 4:10 am |
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I’m starting to gain some speed on the chord ideas but dang single note stuff drives me nuts as I can start it anywhere.
Jernigan recommended I do it near the specific chord voicing but sometimes feels like unnecessary movement on Lap Steel Guitar vs pedal steel.
When I approach transcribing single note lines I play it then try writing it out but sometimes take sooooo long.
I guess it’s a theory thing. I need to strengthen so maybe I associate notes/modes/arpeggios to given chords faster. But I get thrown s sometimes it’s a mode with outside lines or it’s and Arpeggio with added notes.
How do you guys know so fast??? What to do and where to go. Yes picking it out slowly has its benefits but I’d love to know more theory about identifying it so I can play and read on the fly.
So any tips from you guys or others would be helpful.
I can do the note for note. Its just deciding how, where but for me and maybe not others WHY it works?
Cause the Why helps me understand how to reapply it.
Especially from high speed transcribers like Andy Volk Or Guy
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 4:48 am
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Well, Stefan, transcribing is hard work - first and foremost. Mike Neer and Guy Cundell have both been very kind in helping me get better at arranging and transcribing as, being self taught, there were gaps in may knowledge that I've been slowly filling in. My late friend John McGann (we did the Joaquin book and three DVDs together) was a master transcriber and he was also very encouraging to my efforts. I'm a non math-oriented person so the math part of music has kicked my butt for years. So if I can do it, anyone can.
So a few tips ....
Get a good transcribing/slow downer app that makes the grunt work part easier. John used "The Amazing Slow Downer". I use an app called transcribe: https://www.seventhstring.com
The most helpful thing is to do it - do it a lot. The more you arrange and transcribe, the better you'll become. It takes hours and hours to get faster at it but then your mind starts to see the patterns.
From Guy I learned that even if it sounds exactly right in playback, you need to ask yourself if the way you've notated a passage is the simplest, most elegant way to present it.
Guy advocates Sibelius, which is the most professional/most expensive notation program out there but very powerful. http://www.avid.com/sibelius. I may switch but for now, GuitarPro7 seems to meet 98% of my needs. https://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php
The HOW can be tricky but the WHY is the hardest part. I am getting pretty good at hearing single note lines but notating complex rhythms and really hearing chord progressions is harder. It can take a certain amount of forensic work to understand why a musician used a certain note or accented a phrase the way they did. Is it on a strong or weak beat? Does the measure start with an 8th note rest and that's what makes it swing? Are they targeting a specific chord tone? Etc. Etc.
To make the single note stuff easier, slow it way down and loop small chunks - maybe one bar. It's easier to hear a line that way and the more you do it, the less time it will take. But face it: it's never going to be lightening fast. It's inherently a somewhat tedious process but the end result is worth your time. Hope some of this is helpful!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
Last edited by Andy Volk on 29 Jan 2018 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 5:01 am
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Huge thanks Andy.
Yeah I downloaded the amazing slow downer.
Noticed as well chords with close voicings are tricky to transcribe.
Great tips.
Will keep at it and I guess use the amazing slow downer and just see whatever lays out with least difficulty vs movement
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 6:48 am
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Glad to be of service. 
Check out Transcribe too - I like it better than the ASD app. It's really easy to visually highlight a passage to loop and to then change to another part of the music in an instant. Good luck!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 7:22 am
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| I've read that the latest version of Band-in-a-box will let you input an MP3 and it will automatically figure out and transcribe the chords for you. Haven't tried it myself to know how accurate it is. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 8:01 am
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Since it seems like you are interested in the analysis aspect of transcribing (really why we do it in the first place, it gives context) but don't know how to approach it, you should peruse Steve Khan's transcriptions and analysis on his website.
Gaining the knowledge to put things in proper context is best achieved starting with simpler solos. This is a solo that Steve and I both transcribed simultaneously and then compared notes. He is excellent at transcribing and his suggestions really got me going in the direction. I took lessons with him for about 3 months, right at the time he was compiling his book of Pat martino transcriptions, around 1987.
This solo is Embarcadero, played by Jim Hall on a Paul Desmond record. There was no internet back then, and I didn't have this particular LP, so SK made me a cassette dub of it.
http://www.stevekhan.com/hallanalysis.htm
There are a ton of solos here. It should give you a good start. http://www.stevekhan.com/korner1.htm
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 8:02 am
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There are a couple apps that do that - like Chordify - for one example. None of them, in my experience, are 100% right once you move beyond the simplest of harmonies but they will get you in the ballpark. Once you start putting chords over bass notes (such as D/A) the apps start to get really inaccurate.
https://chordify.net
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 8:20 am Re: Transcribing Tips and tricks
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
... but dang single note stuff drives me nuts as I can start it anywhere.
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You're speaking here specifically of transcribing steel guitar music, and with the goal of figuring out exactly how it was played by whoever recorded it.
You need to listen carefully for subtleties of tone and articulation. A note played on your 2nd string, for instance, will sound different than the same note played 10 frets higher on a wound string. That's no foolproof indicator, but a clue and means of discriminating. Are consecutive notes played on the same string or not? You can usually hear that. If you think not, look for where they're at or near the same fret; then look to the surrounding notes for a logical location where you might play the whole phrase or sub-phrase (until you hear a slide or obvious position change). I'm probably stating the obvious here, but...
How much time do you want to spend puzzling over exactly where someone else played a particular phrase is a question worth asking. It might make more sense, and take less time, to figure out where it's most comfortable and efficient for you to play it, while taking note of particular effects (slides, open strings, etc.) that caught your attention and you wish to incorporate.
I think one mistake a lot of people make, which slows down the process, is to approach transcribing melodies one note at a time before they've mentally assimilated a larger chunk (say, one or more measures constituting a complete musical unit). You need the context of surrounding notes to make any sense of what you're transcribing. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 8:28 am Re: Transcribing Tips and tricks
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| James Hartman wrote: |
...
You're speaking here specifically of transcribing steel guitar music, and with the goal of figuring out exactly how it was played by whoever recorded it.
g. |
Not necessarily Steel Guitar only but for now mainly yes.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 5:59 pm
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Stephan. I was fortunate enough to teach a class in aural training and transcription over a number of years and had cause to think deeply about the subject in order to arrive at an effective and consistent teaching method. These were the main techniques/principles that I came up with that confirm some of the excellent advice offered above.
a) Chunking: Analysing music by phrase rather than note by note. It turns out that short-term/working memory is ten to twenty seconds long. So, it is possible to retain unrehearsed phrases up to that length. Once you have that phrase in your mind you can manipulate the speed at which you examine it. You can be your own ‘slower downer’. Singing it is useful.
In class, I would insist that students listen to a phrase at least three times before starting to write. This was an attempt to get the phrase firmly into their short-term memory. For the most part, they found the process to be counterintuitive and most would try to grab the first few notes as soon as the playing started because they were sure of them. Then they would try to add to that in consequent passes. In doing so they never retained the full phrase.
b) Model comparison: The mental process of comparison is useful in identifying the unknown by comparing it to the known. So it is useful to be familiar with basic components of pitch and rhythm. The use of the first notes of standard songs for a particular interval is an example of this. (Auld Lang Syne: perfect fourth)
Pitch. Know and aurally recognize all intervals within an octave. Over two octaves is also helpful. (10ths, 11ths etc) Recognize major and minor triads in all inversions and seventh chords in all inversions, Maj7, min7, min7b5 and especially dominant seventh. These are the basic components of functional harmony. Beyond these it is all about colour which you can determine as you go. A good exercise to test your chordal acuity is to take a single note as bass note and then sing each inversion of a dominant chord. Takes a bit of practice.
Rhythm: People get hungup about pitch and forget that rhythm is half the equation. The principle also applies for rhythm. Knowing how basic patterns sound and look is useful. Also, knowing the convention of how to write swing saves a lot of time and helps perception.
Possibly the most difficult task when writing rhythm is the ability to hold two things in your short-term memory at the same time. They are, first, the phrase and then, the meter. That is, you need to be able to sing the phrase while tapping out the beat. I get students to do this by singing the phrase while counting the beat across the fingers of one hand. This gives you a visual indication of where in the bar the note you are singing falls. You can change the subdivisions on your fingers if you want for dense material but it makes the aural, visual. This one is invaluable once you get it.
c) Hierarchy: Determine a list of priorities and complete them one by one. For me that would be from macro to micro: form, chord chart, bass line, lead melody, harmony lines. Stay unwaveringly focused on the element you are working on.
d) Review: Always be prepared to adjust what you have down. Things often sound different the next day. Don’t be afraid of making mistakes. Perception is a dynamic process that unfolds gradually, over minutes, hours, days or years. I enjoy going back to music that I knew well years ago and discovering new things that my old self could never have perceived. Aural development is an endless process that keeps rewarding.
e) Simplicity: Leave as little black on page as possible. Someone has to read this sh*t. Write things that can be easily read. It doesn’t matter if they are not a perfect representation.
f) Dig it!: It would be hard to get good at this stuff if you don’t enjoy it. For me it is a marriage of all the good stuff; theory, practice, art, history, aesthetics and on and on….
There are some excellent apps for developing these skills. One that I can recommend is Auralia by Rising Software that has been out for over ten years and its development shows it. It is widely used across Australia in high schools and colleges.
On Transcribe, I use it only as last resort and not as a ‘go-to’. I'm not sure if I would have developed my skills if I had started out on it. The ear really is a muscle and responds to exercise.
Finally, this is maybe a bit of ‘willy waving’ but it is a demonstration of the power of transcription. When I was at college, I was commissioned to transcribe a bunch of band arrangements from a Dianne Schuur album, ‘Timeless’, a showcase of top band arrangers. Here are two recordings. The first, the original, is a studio recording of Hollywood professionals led by maestro, Dave Grusin, arrangement by Pat Williams. The second is a college band, recorded in a rehearsal room on a stereo pair located above the totally-green conductor’s head (me) with the singer, my sister, drafted for the project the day before, standing beside me, no PA, no processing. The band had not seen or rehearsed the piece and this is the second pass. Now the differences are stark but the great arrangement still wins through, I think, despite the tempo getting away a bit.
Dianne Schuur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLtaBs49G7w
Adelaide University Big Band: http://picosong.com/wqFYp/ |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 6:32 pm
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| ^ My Vote for best post of the year. thank you for taking the time to write that |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 29 Jan 2018 9:24 pm
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Excellent Guy, Mike and Andy.
Guy I hope you now know am going to now bug you as I think you can help with my goals. 
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 30 Jan 2018 4:50 am
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Sincere thanks for your insights Guy and thanks for all your kindness.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2018 6:11 am
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Well said!
I recall transcribing Klezmer tunes off cassettes circa 1981-2. Today's digital tools are really wonderful for helping get those fast bits.
But they still don't tell you in what tuning or which string someone plays a given tune. |
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Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 30 Jan 2018 9:18 am
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No, it IS scary!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 30 Jan 2018 1:47 pm
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I'd say Dylan suffers from Beethoven Syndrome. I guess we all wonder what the future holds for him.
But to return to the OP, I cannot add to the astute observations so far. However, I do love transcribing steel guitar music, and I am probably better at it than playing it. First, I have to get the chord progression right. Then I chunk it, but with single note lines, I often try two or three different ways to do it, the strategic context is the deciding factor for me. I am not trying to write out a historical document, even though that is a noble cause. My use is to steal the whole or parts of good arrangements that I can play.
Consequently, I will not necessarily use the original tuning. I only use G, A6, B11, E9.
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Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 30 Jan 2018 2:45 pm
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I remember when I first saw the first video of this little guy thinking WTF! How does this happen as this age? He must either have a tiger mother or, if he fell into it, he must have been fed very carefully by someone who knew what they were doing. I wonder about his future. Will he become another Daniel Collier, is he a ‘milkshake duck’ or could he end up in rehab by the age of twenty?
I hope he turns into a Jacob Collier who is an amazing fellow. He has aural skills in advance of this young fellow but with deep theoretical knowledge, as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnBr070vcNE&t=106s
When I first saw Collier’s theory clips I wondered if he was going to turn all that potential into art and the answer is a resounding yes. Here he is as groovemeister. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5FqpddnJmc
And here he puts his harmonic knowledge into practice with a wonderful arrangement of ‘In My Room’ from his debut album which is well worth checking out. I think he sings all the tracks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZgR2rXsRC0
But back in the real world and on topic, Beato, who conducted the interview with Dylan is also very interesting and has a great Youtube channel. In the ‘Just Dig It’ stakes, his obvious love of what he is doing comes through and makes this 18 minute theoretical analysis of Police’s ‘Every Little thing She Does’ very entertaining and educational. His attitude just makes it rock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZavJLr5Otq4 |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 7:32 am
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It seems pretty well established that children under the age of about 10 learn music very differently than beyond that age, when apparently the brain has become "hard wired" in some way which effects that sort of learning. That doesn't mean we could all have become musical prodigies had we been given the right early training, nor does it mean we're doomed if we weren't. But we might all have gotten a significant head start...
I had a harmony teacher in college who's father, a professional musician, had sat with him at the piano when he was a small child and made a game of identifying chords by tonal "color". He said that distinguishing and identifying chords for him was exactly that: color. In other words, no analytical process just instant recognition, exactly the way any of us recognizes red or blue in the visual realm. Kind of sucked to be told that as a young adult struggling to develop good aural recognition of chord progressions. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2018 9:12 pm
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Well "chunking" is great, but I see that as half the work - the other being WHAT are you chunking? THIS here
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but then your mind starts to see the patterns.
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The patterns are not magic, they're tools that an improvisor plays when they go on stage to "forget everything and just play" - utter nonsense, you CAN'T forget them, sure hope not at least! The construction of melodies is a JOB, and a teachable and learnable one at that.
There's probably... a couple of dozen "tricks" that are used as the building blocks of solos and compositions. You know, WHY is the second note played? Where is the dude going? One example would be parallelism (going numbery here):
1-2-3 could be followed by a rest then
4-5-6
But NOT to just play the scale, it could just as easily be
1-2-3 then
5-6-7
or
1-2-3 but drop beneath for that
5-6-7
Or Contrary Motion, just like it sounds, which starts whiffin' into Counterpoint and ANSWERING yourself, like trading licks. Which gets into displacement, octave displacement is a famous "trick" that can be WAY wierd... displacing by FOURTHS is more civilised (and very very common, re: da blooz).
Time Expansion - stretch-ch-ch-ing the notes, making a two-bar melody over into a four-bar one.
The Big Boys often talk about the contour of a melody, indeed if you find the edges first, highs and lows... Often the chord tones are on the beat, the "color" notes off... unless you're Miles, who's utterly confounding. WHY, Miles? Why THERE?!? And Voice Leading, adding notes from the UPCOMING chord to "suck" you along. I'm pretty sure my terminology is... umm. Oh well. This is pretty much my obsession - why THAT second note? And you see these same patterns and melodic fragments over and over and over, another:
Chord tones going UP, diatonic fragments coming down. And vice-versa, and inside out. Can lead into expanding the MELODIC contours, bigger intervals (prolly a name fer it too). When you've got the contour, and the high and low notes, the rest of it can ONLY be a smaller number of choices.
I don't know that I've EVER seen a comprehensive and succinct listing of the "tricks?" But WIKIPEDIA is really VERY good here! Here's one doorway, they go on and on and on... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecutive_fifths
Care is needed. In the early sixties people began spreading transcriptions of Parker, Adderly, Sonny Rollins, the net effect was an entire generation of "jazz guitarists" who were playing Charlie Parker's correct "notes" but all as straight eighth notes, dut dut dut dut; sigh. And steel guitarists "playing jazz" ALWAYS start their solos with four ascending eighth notes to one high quarter note; because that's how "Straight No Chaser" starts, "Straight no Chaser" is jazz, man, so-oo THERE! "How to be a Jazz Cat 101."
And, almost forgot: Reading along with music that's harder than you can play is invaluable, methinks. The Classical Fake Book v.2 -> Beethoven's and Tchaikovsky's violin concertos jacked up my ability to even HEAR stuff at the correct velocity. Without that it just.. CAN'T that's all. Due to the (hilarious?) trickery of MY higher power, I started hearing a bunch quicker just in time for the arthritis to finalize the munching of my left arm...  maybe I oughtta bank off of this Tezcatlipoca-the-Horned-Jaguar-God-of-Darkness, huh. Dog bless the steel guitar I guess.
Main point: If you can "chunk" according to the melody-generation technique, not only will many/more of the connecting notes then "fill themselves in," You're also approaching the REAL POINT (IMO) - why did they DO that? |
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