12 string or double 10...?

Dan Salini · From: SLC UTAH USA

Hi gang , I am looking at getting into my next steel.
I am having a tough time deciding on a double 10 or going with a U12. I am currently playing the standard E9, 3p and 4kl. If I choose a U12 will 7 pedals and 4 kl get me going in the right direction ?? (What ever that might mean). I will appreciate any and all input.

Thanks...... clueless D.

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Dan,i think you will get all kindda answers here!!My own experience,i had Bruce to build me a ZUM STEEL UNIVERSAL 12 in 1984,i played it for 20yrs.and never learned to really like it.guess i'm from the old days,i played double 10s to long!!one thing i didn't like was pedals harder to mash,pulling those big strings.also i was use to grabing groups like 6-8-10,and losing the 9th string,i didn't learn to like that.To each his own i guess. farris

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

You'll find plenty of 'advice' in past threads on this subject - try a forum search.

I think it's really a personal choice. I'm veering to universal, since I like to have most everything on one neck, and there are some optional ways to do things. For example, some of the important C6 pedal 5/6 moves can be done with the A/B pedals plus some levers. I find it easier to quickly transition between E9-country, blues/sacred-steel, and 6th-jazzier styles. But I also don't have a ton of time already invested in the C6 neck and its traditional accoutrements.

As Farris says, one disadvantage is that some of the pulls might be stiffer. Some experienced C6 players argue that there things on C6 not available on U12. Conversely, some experienced universal players have also argued there are some things on U12 not available on C6. My guess is that only a very advanced player would seriously notice this. I also think it's a bit easier to get two separate necks 'sweetly' in tune.

With all this said, I find my 14-string universal to be, for me, more logically laid out, to my tastes. It is a bit tougher to get 'sweetly' in tune over all the changes, but I still like it. Truth is, I'm probably not fully decided here, and have both a U14 and a D-10 right now.

If you go universal, I strongly suggest at least 7+5 or 8+5, the additional lever being a LKV. This gives the 'normal' 3+4 E9 changes plus the X-lever (lowers strings 5 and 10 from B to Bb). I am finding the X-lever useful on E9, but essential on U12. Again, there's lots of advice on this using a forum search.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I am with David M. on this in general.

I am getting an S-14 U shortly, and will still keep the D-10 Shobud, but it will leave me the time to do some well needed work on the bud too.

It is personaly choice of course. I have played a few Uni's, and thought I didn't get used to them instantly, I did get music coming out that WAS a good blend of C6 and E9. I am more of a C6 player, But find some of each useful on many tunes.

I also like thinking in E position fast on the fly as a guitar player.
But also it is unlikely to stay a vanila uni, I will run a few tunings by this baby over time.

As the man said : There are ways and there are ways.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I play a D-10 and a S-12U. Being real familiar with the C6th tuning and knowing how to play in the C6th mode will make the S-12U a lot easier to learn. I've spent as much time on the C6th as I have the E9th over the last several years and it really paid off when I started playing the S-12's. Everything you play on a D-10 can pretty much be found on S-12U. I just have to be in a different mind or thought process to keep each guitar separate. It's lot of fun though. Good luck.

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

HI Dan, with the new Superb EXCEL, those basic tuning problems have been completely eliminated. The separate tuning conditions are available only on this guitar. Their new 6 raise/four lower changer allows you to tune each change with out affecting the previous tuning. Really neat and my fourteen sting unit really sings with the 25 1/2" scale. (Guitar also comes with 5 raise and 5 lower changer so check them out. Scotty is the dealer).
Bill Stafford

Dan Salini · From: SLC UTAH USA

Thanks guys, This will help out. Oh yeah, I forgot about the search the topic thang...I 'll bet this has been addressed many times.

Dan

Dave Van Allen · From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

several...

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Bill that sounds like a REALLY cool horn.
Can you post some pics?
DD

David Doggett · Posted 15 Aug 2005 8:53 am

If all you want to play is Nashville country on E9 and Western swing on C6, and you want to put the maximum number of pedals and knee levers on each neck to imitate the top pros, then a D10 is the traditional way to do that. You can always put one more change on each neck of a D10 than you can put on a uni, if for no other reason than that you can have your knee levers work both necks completely independently. You can put a center C6 cluster for the left knee on a uni to get everything on a D10, but the right knees have to go to one mode or the other on a uni, but can go to both on a D10. This can give you one extra knee lever for each neck. You can put more than 3 levers on each left knee cluster on a uni (as Larry Bell does), but that can also be done on a D10.

Also, in B6 mode on a uni, one knee is always pinned, holding the E lower lever that gives the B6 mode. You can free that knee up with a lock, but then you have lost the potential of mixing the two modes.

If you are fairly new to pedal steel, and started on E9, it takes only a few weeks to get use to the new grips without the D string. After that, the uni grips become simpler than standard E9 or extended E9, because there is one less string to skip and block. I had played E9 for a few years, and made the transition easily. But many players who have played E9 for many years can't seem to make the transition.

Given all the above, why do I love my uni so much more than my D10? Because, although I may have one or two less changes in each mode, say 90%, in return for that missing 10% I always have ALL of both modes available from note to note. Rather than having "only" 90%, I have 180%. A short trial of a uni does not seem to make this enormous gain obvious to most D10 players, because thinking in two separate copedants is so ingrained for them.

Furthermore, many D10 players who disparage a uni don't have a fully loaded D10 like the pros, and so really would miss nothing on a uni. Most D10 players have 8 & 4, and the right knees go to one neck or the other, not both. You can get 100% of that on a uni. The vast majority of country and swing can be played with that basic copedant. I don't primarily play country or swing, I play a little of everything. The basic E9 and C6 copedants seem adequate for my needs in those genres. I don't feel compelled to chase every new change the top pros put on their 9 & 8 professional rigs. If I specialized in commercial music and was competing with them, maybe I would.

I play blues, rock, jazz and classical music. The additional low strings on a uni, and the versatility of switching between modes and thinking in terms of one neck seem to make the uni work better for me. The V chord of the E9 mode is at the tonic fret in the B6 mode (also the relative minor of B6 mode), and IV chord of the B6 mode resolves to the I chord in the E9 mode. So the two modes are harmonically related on the one neck, making both necks easier to learn.

I have not found any serious tuning issues in the uni. This is mainly because the two modes are harmonically related. If you tune straight up ET (equal temper), then the only tuning issue is cabinet drop. However, if you tune by ear to JI (just intonation, beats out), there are no additional tuning problems for a uni. The new 3rd on strings 4, 8 and 11 in B6 mode are tuned on the E lower lever, and so do not interfere with the straight up tuning of the open 4th and 8th strings. Essentially pure JI intervals can be obtained on all the main chords of both modes, and do not create conflicts with each other. I have not checked all the B6 pedals carefully with a meter, but they sound okay by ear. So I think the "tuning problem" of a uni is a seemingly potential theoretical problem that just doesn't materialize in practice.

Because of the extra strings, a uni has 3 or 4 pulls on pedals or levers that have only 2 or 3 on a D10. This can make the action stiffer and less smooth on an older guitar or a poorly adjusted one. But the best modern manufacturers make easy, smooth action unis that have overcome these potential problems.

There is a bigger difference in size and weight than discussed above. Even the above weights show 6 lbs. difference, not 4. That can be the straw that breaks the camels back, especially in the heavy case. And the smaller size is very important, and interacts with lighter weight. For practicing and gigging around town, I don't put my uni in a case. I just squat down, put my shoulder under the back apron, and stand up. I can easily carry my uni up my narrow basement stairs this way. I can also sort of hitch the back apron on my hip, scotch it with my belt, and hold it there with one hand, a difficult feat with a D10. I walk out my front door and stand it up behind the back seat of my mini van. At the gig, I put my uni on my shoulder again, walk in, have one hand free for opening doors and holding stair rails, and set it down on stage, ready to play. Reverse the procedure and the guitar is back home in my basement, setup and ready for practice. I can't do that with my D10. It's too wide to hold on my shoulder, and so heavy I wouldn't be able to stand up from my squat. And it won't fit behind the back seat of my mini van. I would have to dissassemble a D10 every time I moved it. In the case, the whole D10 rig is too heavy. I have to carry the legs separately. If I have to put my uni in the case for an out of town trip, it is small enough and light enough to be manageable all in one case. And I've gotten so use to the additional low strings on the uni, that I would really need a 12 and 10, or a D12, which would make the size and weight issue even worse.

So for all the above reasons, I do not find that one extra lick you can put on each neck of a D10 worth it. 180% all the time is fine. The uni is just more fun for me in every way.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 August 2005 at 12:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 August 2005 at 12:57 PM.]

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

David- You have presented a very good analysis on the U12 and D10 advantages and disadvantages........al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Ditto with Al.
Another reason I am getting the S-uni is getting on planes.
A D-10 is borderline or way over most flight weights these days.
The cost of bringin my Shobud to Thailand was $1,600...overweight charges...
Yep I don't lie. So it didn't make the trip.

A uni in a soft case can actually be carry on in many cases.
Put the suit case and legs in the hold, carry on the steel.
And in a light weight hardcase it has less issues in the hold.

I expect to do some gigs flying in, so this made MUCH more sense.

I won't do without a D-10. but wil ADD a S-x with a lot of power.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

This topic is an old chestnut for sure, but I find myself wondering about D10 vs. S12 more and more these days.

My E9 IS fully loaded with 6 'knees' and four pedals, and it almost resembles a 'universal' set-up - at least the 'top' half of it! I have so much available to me, musically speaking, with all these options. I only started studying C6th a relatively short time ago (after 30 years of E9), and I do ponder the single-neck alternative.

I suppose I'll stay with what I have (given my advanced age, and the fact that I couldn't afford to take the time off to become acclimatized to the new string-grips!), but were I starting from scratch now, I believe I'd favour the Universal, even though I'd NEVER part with that 'D' string in the bass.....

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 15 August 2005 at 02:24 PM.]

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

The following is a great article that discusses this issue.
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

Sherman Willden · From: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA

My biggest problem with my Carter S12 7X5 is the LKL. Getting the 9th string and B pedal took some practice but I am getting it now.

Sometimes when I am concentrating on a new tab I find that I decay the RKR or LKL. Then I must remind myself to push the levers all the way in.

The other problems all relate to E9th stuff such as smashing the BC pedals when I want the AB pedals.

If you do get a U12 7X5 be sure to get Jeff Newman's E9/B6 tape. Excellent. Also be sure to consider a Carter. $2400, excellent guitar available within 6 months, and very good support. See the newest Carter thread.

Sherman

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sherman,
I assume you're referring to the Carter U-12 setup. Why don't you just swap the LKL with the RKL? That makes much more sense to me. E to F belongs on LKL anyway. Not sure where they got that knee lever placement, but it's not what I would consider logical places for those changes.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

Dan,
I just started playing a U-12, 2 yrs. ago. I still consider myself an E-9th player, but, I am learning more and more about the "B-6th" part, every day. The transition from E-9th to B-6th, is really easy, using just one neck with 12 strings. In fact, I'm beginning to think of it as one big tuning. The only learning curve was using the "new extra pedals".
I have my U-12 ZumSteel tuned to Jeff Newman's tuning and have been using his U-12 course. It's very straightforward and explanatory. There's some interesting reading too, regarding his U-12 theory.
As to weight, my U-12 ZumSteel in the case, weighs 51 lbs. I also chose a U-12 because it's a single neck. My arms are short and I've never been comfortable playing a D-10. But, no matter what U-12 you get, make sure the LKL raises the E's to F and the RKR lowers the E's to D#.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I enjoy my MSA S-12. I highly recommend Newman's Universal course as well. I'm up to exercise 6 of 9 and having a ball. When I first listened to the tape, I listened ahead and doubted I'd be able to play what he was pickin'. But now I can, thanks to Jeff's advice and encouragement throughout the course. B6th is cool, and Jeff's course is perfect for the Universal steel.

David Doggett · Posted 17 Aug 2005 8:08 am

One thing I forgot to mention - 12 strings are faster and cheaper to change than 20.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic