A different split tuning question

Slim Heilpern · From: Aptos California, USA

Hi Folks -

I've tried to find the answer I'm looking for in the archives, but there are so many related to split tuning that only address the simple case that I wasn't easily able to find an answer to my specific question, so here goes...

I have a Willy U12 with split screws and have beautiful splits working for the typical situation where you have a single raise interval in combination with a single lower interval -- works like a charm.

But other combinations seem to be beyond what the split screw method can handle, such as a half step lower that will work properly with either a half step or whole step raise (such as my #4 E string which has a lower to Eb and either a whole step raise on P3 or a half step raise on P6).

Am I right that there's no way to achieve both combinations (in tune) with just a split screw?

Can it be done by adding a rod or two?

Thanks in advance for any help with this!

- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Interesting thought, Slim.
On string 4 on a U12, you are basically already using the rod-method of splitting, when you lower the E to Eb on a lever, the raise it back to E on P6.
If you used a Split screw to set the Eb lower, that may open up a nylon-tuner to tune another string-4 split.
But on the other hand, a half step lower split with a full step raise is basically what you get with just the F lever.
It's a brain teaser Smile

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I don't know of any splits that are happening on that string on a uni.

A lower rod is used to lower the E down to D#.
A raise rod is used to raise that D# back to an E.
A raise rod is used to raise the E to F.
A raise rod is used to raise the E to F#.

All can be achieved with the nylon tuners.

Lee, from South Texas

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Exactly what are you looking to do? It's easier (at least for me) to provide answers to specific questions.
You're already splitting with the lever and P6, but that change is tuned for the split with no natural (unlowered) raise. You can conceivably split the C pedal and the E lowers, but I suspect that the desired note at E# will be a bit flatter than the split, in which case there's no real fix.
If you're wanting to accomplish something else, please say "I'm trying to do 'X', but I don't know how."
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

On my uni I split the C pedal with the E lower on string 4 to get A aug at the nut. This is elementary. I don't see any reason for more than one split.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I've always done A+B+F for Augmented. I like the BC split though!

Slim Heilpern · From: Aptos California, USA

Thanks for all the feedback so far, extremely helpful.

To explain why I'm asking:

I'm still fairly new to the instrument and I like to experiment, so it's helpful to know what can and can't be done mechanically -- even though I do try to spend 90% of my time at the instrument playing vs. tinkering. I'm just trying to understand what's reasonably achievable.

While not necessary, I really like the idea that any pedal combination I decide to use would not leave any of the strings out of tune, regardless whether or not you actually need to play that out of tune string while you have those pedals engaged. I think of this as a nice-to-have.

But here's a practical example of what I'm going for on the U12, I've got:

4th String
----------
Open: E
P3: F#
P6: F
RKL: Eb
P3 + RKL: F
P6 + RKL: E

The benefits of the P3 split are hopefully obvious to any E9 player.

One reason it would be nice to be able to tune the P6 split (on my axe it's flat if the P3 split is in tune) is there is a cool diminished 7 chord with a 9 on top with P5, P6, and this lever on strings 8 - 4 (D,F,G#,B,E) with the E going up to F as you release the lever.

Not a big deal since you can just lighten up on the lever a bit to get it in tune, so again, just a nice-to-have.

- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I guess we could muck things up a bit more and ask what tuning system you use! Razz

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you want the same note as the F lever, that might be tricky, since you can't pull it flatter with an extra rod.
Here's a brief explanation of the physics at work in the splits not usually adding up:
As a string gets tighter, the more changer travel is required to move the next amount of pitch in either direction.
Therefore (I'll use the 5th string as an example), at B, the lowering scissor has to move the raise scissor X amount to lower the pitch to A#, but at C#, it will take more travel to lower it to C.
Therefore, if you tune the A pedal and F lever split at C (the change requiring more travel), then the A# will be flat. This is why you need the extra raise rod on the lowering lever, to pull the flat A# back up (in case you're wondering why the extra rod isn't messing with the A pedal, the A (or C) pedal pulls the scissor off of the stop bar and the extra rod, so the rod on the lowering lever is irrelevant.

If you want the same E# of the F lever (which under most standard pedal steel sweetening charts is between 24 and 30 cents flat) with the split of the E lowers and the C pedal, you'll be bang out of luck, because there's no way to flat the split without further flatting the D#: the natural expectation is that a split will be around the same deviation from ET as the full lower. If, on the other hand, you want a higher value of note on the split, you should be able to get it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Slim Heilpern · From: Aptos California, USA

Thanks Lane, at least some of that makes sense to me Winking

.

I'm afraid I'm confused by your 5th string example (I have no issue at all on my 5th string, since I just have the one lower (B > Bb) and pedals 1,3, and 7 all raise to C#, so it's a simple split to achieve an in tune C with that combination).

However, I take your point that not all combinations can be solved by extra rods, which answers my original question.

I think I'll learn to compensate using technique instead of mechanics Winking

.

As for sweetened tunings, I haven't yet found one that I'm comfortable with, perhaps since I'm recording along with all equal-tempered instruments. But I may eventually come around...

Thanks Again!

- Slim.
_________________
Chromatic Harmonica, Guitar, and Pedal Steel (Williams U12 Series 700, Emmons lap)
http://slimandpenny.com

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

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