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Topic: E9 Jazz? |
Cody Russell
From:
Arkansas, now in Denver
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Posted 8 Jan 2011 4:23 pm |
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So I just got the Redneck Jazz Explosion and I'm curious how much jazz can be played on E9 Emmons setup since that's all I have?...for now. I'm not really looking for those songs in particular. Just some explanation of what's possible and maybe a map of how to find it.I aldeady know my AB pedal down C6 and my RKL C6. Any iformation or ideas could be helpful. Please keep in mind that I know very little about jazz theory in general. Thanks
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carter pro, 66 twin revrerb, steel king, tut taylor dobro, gibson rb 250 |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 8 Jan 2011 5:25 pm
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Cody, be sure to rummage among the videos at www.steelguitarjazz.com. There are several videos played on E9. Also, years ago, Koos Biel, who was unaware of the C6 tuning at the time, learned to play the entire Emmons Steel Guitar Jazz album on E9! So there are no limits. Good luck!
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com
Last edited by Jim Cohen on 9 Jan 2011 12:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bill Bertinot
From:
Burlington Ky
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 12:07 am
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Jim, that's a great link for steel guitar jazz!
Cody: There's lots of possibilities with the E9th. Doug Jernigan has CD with Tabs of Swing for the E9th.
In the meantime, here's a little jazz I did on the E9th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMqTj6VnRJw |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 10:00 am
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As far as single note lines go I suppose your own knowledge, talent, and practice time are the only limits. As far as playing chords goes, you may not be able to play full voicings of altered or extended chords, due to the fact that many of the pulls on E9th operate in parallel in both octaves. But if you have a bass player, and know your substitutions, you ought to be able to cover anything.
Dave Pearlman plays great jazz on E9th 10 string with 4 & 4. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 10:44 am
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Herb's lesson on C6 on E9 might help out:
http://steelguitarmusic.com/instruction/herbsteiner.html
On another level there are only 12 notes in all of western music. If you know which ones to play and how to to find them on your instrument you are good to go.
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Bob |
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Steve Alcott
From:
New York, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 12:19 pm
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| Randy Beavers plays a lot of jazz/swing on E9. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 12:41 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| ...there are only 12 notes in all of western music. If you know which ones to play and how to to find them on your instrument you are good to go. |
Oh, how I wish it were that simple. And maybe it is below about 90 bpm, but above that, it sure matters (at least to me) what tuning I'm playing, which pedals and KL's I've got, etc., because, while all the notes are certainly there, they're not necessarily lined up in the most convenient places for doing rapid single-note runs with a straight bar, or in having all the voicings you might like to have for chordal work. I'm always jealous of pianists (and, to some degree, guitarists) who can simply move one finger out of 10 to raise or sharp one note in a chord without having to change or move any of the other fingers. On steel, that altered note may just not be available in that position, and you either need a pedal or KL to create it there, or else you have to go to another fret/position and recreate the other notes in a place where your altered note is available. And, more often than not, you're giving up a different note in the chord to get that new one. If this sounds complicated, it's because it is! Having said that, there's an awful lot that one can still do within the confines of a standard steel guitar setup.
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 5:35 pm
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Yeah but tell that piano player you've changed the key from C to C# and watch 'em squirm.  
Every instrument comes with its strengths and weaknesses.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 9 Jan 2011 6:27 pm
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Jim,
I didn't say it was easy ! I just spent the last hour playing chopsticks first on the piano then in a couple different positions on the E9 neck and then in a couple positions on the C6 neck. I sometimes wish I was smart enough to play music !
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Bob |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 10 Jan 2011 5:30 am
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You can play any style music on any instrument or tuning- Like Bob H says- the 12 notes are there. On single lines or double stops even a lap is suitable for jazz
but if you want to do more than 2 notes of complex chords you'll need more pedal changes in most cases |
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Cody Russell
From:
Arkansas, now in Denver
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Posted 16 Jan 2011 7:09 pm
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thanks for all the input guys. I think I'm looking for some different chords and scales other than my major and minor ones and how they relate to each other. thanks again for the input.
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carter pro, 66 twin revrerb, steel king, tut taylor dobro, gibson rb 250 |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2011 7:55 pm
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Cody...the E9 tuning is great for jazz! In some ways it might even be better for certain styles of the more modern modal style jazz that uses a lot of "open" sounding intervals. i.e. 4ths, maj9's, triads superimposed over different bass lines etc. as opposed to the altered 7th type stuff.
The thing about E9 is that it's a little harder to find jazz harmonies because it's more limited in the BASS department than a piano, guitar, or....C6. Trust me, those chords are there, you just have to know how to look for them. At least partial voicings are there. As far as single note jazz lines for soloing are concerned, you could find them on any tuning with any number of strings.
I highly recommend that you look into getting the Band in A Box program, or at least get some jazz jam tracks like Jamey Abersold etc. That way you can look into thinking of your E9 tuning as if it was a jazz pianist's right hand, which IMO is the key! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 16 Jan 2011 9:49 pm
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Rick,
Would you play something like "Iris" by Wayne Shorter on the E neck ? I'm thinking those chords can be broken down into basic triads pretty easy if there is somebody else covering the roots. I'm not sure what to do with so much of this stuff. Either look at the chords as altered or as poly chords.
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Bob |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2011 10:15 pm
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Great tune! Mile's ESP!!!
Well for the most part I think poly-chords on E9 and Altered chords on C6, just because that's where my brain seems to go initially. I'd bet Herbie was thinking poly-chords.
My maxed out steel has some pulls that seem to make each one more and more like the other one. Everything's extended......and heavy. 
Are you playing "Iris" in a band Bob? If so...cool!  |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Jan 2011 1:15 am
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I'll add Iris to the set in my jazz type band once I get my head wrapped around it. It might take a few weeks.
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Bob |
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Henry
From:
Europe
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2014 8:24 pm
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I'm bumping this old thread because I just started having the same questions. A guitar-playing jamming partner of mine wants to do Blue Bossa, a jazz standard. I sat down in front of my steel this evening to work on the first step... locating the different chord positions. The next step is to start brainstorming the chord transitions and how to take advantage of them with the pedal steel. That's where I'm overwhelmed.
Playing your basic I, IV, V on the E9 neck is very intuitive and lots of nice sounding licks and changes are built into the tuning. The pentatonic scale and 4ths and 7ths are accessible without having to think hard about it.
Is there any similar kind of intuitiveness in the standard E9 copedent?
Most pedal steel jazz that I hear doesn't suit my taste. When I listen to different renditions of Blue Bossa and I think about what I could add on steel, it boils down to dumbing it down and making it easier to listen to... like smooth jazz. However, my music theory knowledge isn't deep enough to know how the different complex chords function against each other and I tie brain in knots trying to figure out patterns on the E9 neck anyway.
I'm a new enough player where I remember trying to figure out parts of songs before I really figured out how the E9 neck worked. This is nothing like that, right? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Oct 2014 3:12 am
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The standard E9th copedent doesn't lend itself to creating large extended chords. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO. Horn players work with those harmonies, and can only play one note at a time. You can just play the extended harmonies and let the guitar player lay down the rest of the notes. If you only need three notes and don't mind them not going terribly deep in the tonal register, you can play all the jazz you want.
As for playing those extended harmonies, they're PROBABLY all there on the neck, but it may require sitting down with a piece of paper and mapping out where and how to find the voicing you want.
The good news is that usually you only have to map out a voicing once or twice, and then you can remember it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Oct 2014 3:25 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Jim,
I didn't say it was easy ! I just spent the last hour playing chopsticks first on the piano then in a couple different positions on the E9 neck and then in a couple positions on the C6 neck. I sometimes wish I was smart enough to play music ! |
Bob has found a hobby.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 27 Oct 2014 9:07 am
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| I figured that if I was playing behind the guitar that I'd have to settle for implying the chords instead of being literal with them. As far as mentally mapping it out on the neck, if I remember right, Blue Bossa is mostly minor seventh chords and variations of them. Since a minor seventh chord is just a major chord stacked on the minor chord, that's the easiest way for me to think about it for playing around with on the E9 copedent. But before I get too far down that path, I want to know if there's a more natural way to approach it. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 27 Oct 2014 1:37 pm
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I try to play as much music in a jazz context as I can, and each tuning has its strengths and weaknesses. For example, Jobim's "Girl From Ipanema" is relatively straighforward on C6 but nigh impossible on E9, as the majority of melody notes are outside the chord they appear over, a difficult business for E9 setups; on the other hand, his "One Note Samba" is a fun E9 exercise that is a real pain to eke out on C6.
Take it one song at a time, pay attention to the interchordal relationships, and before long you will find the patterns that everything else stems from. "Satin Doll" and All of Me" are easy on either neck, while "Giant Steps" is tough on any instrument.
FWIW, as much as it may be a major staple of the genre, I find "Blue Bossa" to be more than a little challenging on either neck  |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Amarillo,Tx
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Posted 28 Oct 2014 3:31 pm
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Lowering the low D to C# and low B to an A on the same knee makes some really nice moves possible.
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Keep pickin', Larry |
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Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
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Posted 28 Oct 2014 11:14 pm Jazz
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I'm certainly no expert on jazz, but if you want a better shot at the jazz chords, get rid of that 9th string and add a g# on the bottom like a universal. That way you can do a lot of rakes where the 9th just gets in the way. also if you have a lever that lowers the 7th a half tone, you can get a true diminished in combo with whatever pulls your 9th to up 3 or 8th down 2. That then gives you two of the c6th pedals. Just a thought.
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MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
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Kevin Engbretson
From:
Monroe, WA
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Posted 1 Nov 2014 11:42 am
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I love exploring jazz on the E9. I believe it's all there and sounds great. Girl From Ipanema melody and chords are very nice. Sorry I don't have the time or energy to tab but you can get the idea:
A section: use C major position 8th fret for Fmaj7 and G7, 6th fret Bb position for
Gmin, sub C7 and/or F#7 (1st or second fret) for Gb7b5
B section: Gbmaj7 at second fret (knee lever that lowers E) or 4th fret (AB ped), B7 at 7th fret,
F#min7 at 5th fret (A ped and use knee for melody note), D9 at 3rd
fret (AB and knee lever), next phrase same idea but up a fret or half-step.
then Ami7 at 8th fret, sub Ab at the 4th fret for the D7b9#11.
drop down two frets for next phrase same idea as above.
Hope this helps and that I didn't make any major or minor errors in my explanation. These chords / phrases can all be done with just A and B pedals and the one knee lever that lowers Es.
Also use pedal A along with knee lever (the one that drops the Es a half step) for much exploration of quartal stuff.
Kev
Last edited by Kevin Engbretson on 2 Nov 2014 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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