Copedent Advice Needed

Jason Weaver · From: Topeka, Kansas

As some of you know, my first pedal steel is being built as we speak! I am like a 4 year-old on Christmas Eve waiting for this thing. June seems like it is years away.

I am getting a Desert Rose mica S10 3&4. It will have the standard Emmons setup, and I am thinking of adding the change indicated below by the purple box.

One of our fellow forumites suggested that I add the "X lever" commonly found on the LKV to my RKL. Before commiting to this I wanted to get some opinions from other steelers on the list as to 1) will this help me, 2) will this hinder me, 3) am I over my head?

Thank you all in advance for your help in this matter.

Jason

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Why not? If you decide there are too many pulls on that lever, you can just loosen a tuning nut to disable a pull.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think you should lower string 9 to C# on RKR. Most players do.

Tuning your open 7th string F# to -15 makes it out of tune in the B6th position (with E's lowered). I think that most people tune it near 0, and then lower it a few cents with a compensator pull on the A or B pedal.

Raise all of your numbers by 5 cents to sound more in tune with the band.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There was a recent thread on this, http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009854.html. I like the X lever a lot. But the way you have it configured, with the G# to F# lower on string 6, you lose my two favorite changes. The first of those is the nice dim7 by engaging the A+B+Eb+X pedals/levers concurrently. The second is the nice Amaj (AB pedals) to Amin (now engage X) move. You can get the same change by disengaging AB, engaging the E-Eb lever and moving up one fret, but it sounds different.

Since you're getting a guitar made, is getting another lever (say LKV) an option? That way you could move either X or some other change to it. Alternatively, if that's not an option, you could perhaps put either X or the G# to F# lower on RKR. If the extra lever isn't an option, I'd choose to leave X on RKL and move (or omit) the G# to F# change. That reduces (or eliminates) interference with your existing RKR change.

I also put a D to Db lower on string 9 (via RKR). That Db is the 3rd of A6 on strings 9 up to 3 with AB pedals down. I realize that same note is available on string 10 (the A lever has raised B to Db), but there are times I don't want to mess with the string skip. I'm sure there are players who think this is silly, but it doesn't cost you anything I can think of, since you still have the D if you want it. Now, I probably wouldn't put the D# to D/C# lower, a change on strings 6 or 7, and the D to Db lower on RKR. I think this idea works OK if you can put the 6/7 string change somewhere else.

These are just some ideas to think about that seem to work in the context of what you've got planned now. Others no doubt view things very differently.

Jason Weaver · From: Topeka, Kansas

b0b and Dave-

Thanks for the advice.

b0b: The plus and minus cents are from when I cut and pasted the Emmons tempered tuning setup into my spreadsheet. I am not really sure how to even do it. My tuner doesn't give me a number of cents. It just gives one to three arrows for how far I am away from the note.

Dave: I have to say you lost me somewhere in your post. I can talk like that all day long about basses, but I have yet to 'see the Matrix' when it comes to PSG.

If you could break it up and dumb it down for me it would be greatly appreciated.

I see both of you suggested lowering the 9th string on my RKR. Would you do that in addition to the 'X lever mod' or in place of?

Thank you again to the both of you for your knowledge and willingness to share it.

Jason

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Jason Weaver · From: Topeka, Kansas

b0b-

I will not have an LKV. Bill Mayville told me that nobody uses the LKV and he has all of his students do the 'X mod' to their steels. Then they all find themselves using it (they didn't use it as the LKV). I was under the impression that without the LKV or an X mod I would be left wanting.

What do you think?

Jason

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Many people use the LKV. I lower the 6th to an E on the verticle.
Hook

------------------
www.HookMoore.com

David Cobb · From: Chanute, Kansas, USA

If Jason is new to steel, 3&4 will keep him busy for a long time, just MHO.
And I like the LKV too.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've just never seen it ganged to a 6th string lower, that's all. Maybe I'm stuck in the dark ages. I've never lowered my 6th string to F# or felt the need to. I think that the 5th string lower to A# is always a good change to have, wherever you put it.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Jason, I'll try it again, and yes the PSG is complex. Sure, many players don't use a LKV, but many do. Only one of my guitars has it, and now I really wish they all did. My point was that since you're building a guitar from scratch, why not build in some things you may need later. It sounds like you're getting a first-class steel built-to-order.

My concern with your X-lever change (which lowers string 5 from B to Bb) is that you also lower string 6 from G# to F# on the same lever. I think this is unusual, and defeats the most important changes that I use the X-lever for. If I was doing this to my guitar, I'd only put one of those changes on the same lever. That is why I suggested you consider a LKV lever - it gives you a place to put your 'extra' change without interfering with the first one. Here's what I'm suggesting: (Actually, on mine, LKV and RKL are interchanged, but I'm going with your basic setup)



          A   B   C    LKL  LKV  LKR  RKL  RKR


1  F#                                 +G       


2  D#                                     -D/C#    


3  G#        +A                                


4  E             +F#   +F        -Eb           


5  B     +C#     +C#        -Bb               


6  G#        +A                       -F#      


7  F#                                          


8  E                   +F        -Eb           


9  D                                       -C# 


10 B     +C#

There are only two changes here from your suggested copedent: 1) Move X-lever to LKV and 2) Add D-to-C# lower to string 9 via RKR. As I said, I interchange this LKV and RKL, but that's a personal preference, many do it this way. On my guitars without LKV, I just don't have the G#-to-F# change, because I just don't have anywhere reasonable to put it and I use X more. Depending on what you want to play, that might be a good decision or not. I play not only country music, but also blues and jazz, so the X-lever gives me a lot of things I need, especially that nice diminished 7th chord that I mentioned in the earlier post. Similarly, the string 9 D-to-Db change gives a nice A6th chord that's different from the one obtained by using the Eb-lever (which gives a B6th chord). But this may not be right at all for you.

Ultimately, you need to figure out what you're going to do with the levers. I agree, this isn't easy at first. I'd get all the advice I can, since you can really do anything here - the guitar is being built for you. I'm also not saying there's anything wrong, per se, with tying the B-to-Bb lower to the same lever as your G#-to-F# lower, but it does mess up what I believe a lot of people do with X.

Just so you know, I've only been playing around 5 years or so. These changes I'm talking about are not hopelessly difficult to use - if they were, I'd have never been able to figure them out.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I omitted something: I agree with b0b - the X-lever change and D-to-C# change are completely independent of each other the way I've suggested it in my last post. You could do both, either one, or neither. I can't see how either of these gives you anything but more flexibility, at the cost of a 9th-string pull and a vertical lever plus a single 5th-string pull. You don't really even need to use the vertical lever until you're ready for it.

Jason Weaver · From: Topeka, Kansas

Dave,

Thank you, I was with you 100% of the way!

My guitar is a mica Desert Rose, and although very similiar to his pro model it is in fact a student guitar. Here is what it will look like:

It is a 3&3 standard and I am paying extra for the fourth knee. I cannot afford to add an LKV. That is why I was hoping to add it somewhere else.

I have emailed Chuck to have him forget about the X mod, and add the D-C# to the 9th string on the RKR.

Thank you again for your help.

Jason

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Jason - Hope I was able to help. I'll guarantee you, what you're getting is a whole lot better than the 3+1 starter guitar I started with. If you decide later that you don't use the string 6 G#-to-F# lower too much, you can probably move it over to string 5 for an X-lever. That's exactly what I did with my BMI when I got it. Good luck.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

A couple of things:

I'm kind of the opinion that the RKL as shown removes BOTH of the most common uses of B-A#. Since s.6 is lowered also, the major-to-minor with A&B down in lost. Also the use of B-A# as a 9th chord on 5-6-8 is gone.

Having s.1 doing F#-G is used as a dominant 7th with A&B as well, especially when playing Mooney style. With s.5 lowered on the same lever, that option is gone also.

If I only had 4 levers on my guitar, I'd want to decide just which change I'd use the most and go with that one. That's why I don't have a B-A# change on my guitar, since I find the chords in other places without that particular change

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jason Weaver · From: Topeka, Kansas

Dave: Yes, you have helped me a lot.

Herb: Thank you also, for taking the time to respond and help.

Here is my new copedent with the Xmod off and the 9th string RKR mod added.

What do you think? My goal here is to have everything I will need to get into most of the instructional work out there and have a PSG to grow into, because I may not have the money for a Pro model for awhile.

I would really like to here everyone's thoughts on the new layout.

Thanks,

Jason

David Doggett · Posted 19 Apr 2005 6:41 am

Jason, if I were you, I would look on the Carter site at their "most commonly requested copedant." I believe you have pretty much what they have, so you are on the right track. This will get you used to the traditional standard, will serve you well with instructional material, and will allow you to try out a lot of other people's guitars when you meet them. The major alternative to what you have is that many players prefer the E lower lever on RKL, but that is strictly a matter of personal preference and playing style.

I would strongly recommend that you try to come up with the bread for the LKV. While it is true that many older players never added this lever, most of the top pros and younger players have this (or wish they did). All of the other four levers are more or less "essential" standards. Therefore, the LKV becomes the one lever for you to experiment with and find your own personal change. It is especially useful for changes that work well with the AB pedals. I use it to raise 1 and 7 to G, to give me the 7th with the AB pedals down (actually I can keep going and take it all the way up to G#, but catching the half step might be tricky for a beginner). This is very useful for blues and rock licks, which are also common in modern country. With your toes holding down the AB pedals, it is very easy and natural to raise your left knee and hit the vertical lever. If you are not holding down the AB pedals, you have to lean over on your right butt cheek and raise your entire left leg like a dog pissin' on a fire hydrant - not comfortable or pretty. Or you have to take your foot off the pedals and put your toes on the floor so you can press up with your knee, which slows you down. At any rate, this lever is your ticket for freedom to experiment and try different things. It will be cheaper and much more convenient to have the manufacturer put this lever on at the initial setup.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Very good choice, Jason. I think that it will keep you busy for a long time.

I think that people are losing sight of the fact that this is a student model, your first pedal steel. I'm encouraged that you had the foresight to add a 4th lever. You have all of the changes that you need. Now it's time to play!

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I agree with b0b on your set-up as far as "what" changes your going with. I would swap the functions on RKR & RKL as a matter of personal preference. I like to have lowers move in and raise's move out. Just the way I always had mine set up and it's way to late to change now!!! LOL
JE:-)>

------------------
Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
MSA SD-12 4/4 - 76'
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
Bandit 112

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

IMHO, don't sweat it, Jason. The A,B, & C pedals, and the "E" raise/lower will keep you busy for many years, and also allow you to play a ton of good music.

To me, worrying about all those "other" possible changes when you're just starting off is wasted effort.

Alan Shank · From: Woodland, CA, USA

I don't know how people use that 6th string lower to F#, and whether it's important for you to have. I lower my 3rd and 6th strings to G with this lever. Using this lever, here are some of the "new" chords you get:
string, pedal or lever, chord member

3 G 3
4 R
5 5

This gives a minor triad with root on the 4th and 8th strings, two frets above the same chord with B&C pedals down.

3 G R
4 F 7
5 3

This gives a 7th chord with 5th omitted, root on the 3rd, 6th and 10th strings, found two frets above the corresponding major triad with A&B pedals, also root on 3rd and 6th.

3 G 3
4 E R
5 A 7

This gives another 7th, 5th omitted, but with root on the 4th/8th strings, found one fret above a major pedals-up triad with root on the 4th/8th.

3 G 3
4 F 9
5 A 7

This gives a 9th, root and 5th omitted, also know as a "half-diminished 7th." It is closely related to the "GEA" chord, above, with the F lever instead of the E lever raising the root to the 9th.

For example, try:
V V7 V9 I (key of C)
string 3 3 4G 4G 3B
string 4 3 4E 4F 3
string 5 3 4A 4A 3A
(in scale degrees, this is

7 7 7 1
5 5 6 5
2 4 4 3

3 G 7
4 5
5 A 3

This gives a diminished triad, which can be interpreted about a million different ways.
The notation above represents a 7th chord with root omitted. If you have an AB pedal
triad, releasing the B pedal then engaging the G lever gives you a 7th on the same root, but you're not playing the root.

I added this change mainly to increase my stock of dominant chords on the "standard"
string groups.

Here are my "standard sets" of dominant chords:

V7 up 4 up 4
3 G R G 3 B 7
4 F 7 E R E 3
5 3 A 7 R

Vo9 up 4 up 4
3 B 9 G 3 B 7
4 F 7 F 9 E 3
5 3 A 7 A 9

Vo7 up 3 up 7
2 D 7 ---- ----
3 3 5 G 7
4 --- F 3 5
5 5 7 A 3

Just something to consider.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic