| Author |
Topic: Purpose of pedal steel string spacing taper? |
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 10:05 am |
|
| Why is the string spacing on a pedal steel narrower at the nut than it is at the changer? I understand maximizing width within reason to accommodate fingerpicking, but what purpose is served by tapering, from both engineering and playing perspectives? |
|
|
 |
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 11:45 am
|
|
Don't all string instruments taper to some extent?
I realise that's not an answer....
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 12:30 pm
|
|
Probably not an answer to your question but a wider string spacing at the nut would require a wider deck to accommodate the 1st and 10th tuning keys. It also could be that it’s just a tradition carried over from 6 sting guitars.
I’ll file that under my other curious questions. Like where did our fret scale come from and what determined the location of the fretboard dots?
_________________
Jerry Jones |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 12:39 pm
|
|
| Logically, there is a reason to keep them wider at the bridge - it makes more room for the fingers, or finger picks. But there is no such reason to have them as wide at the nut, so we have the taper. Also, I seem to recall there were a couple of brands that didn't have the taper, but I guess they found that there was no advantage to it, and that's why we have the taper on most all of them. |
|
|
|
Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 12:42 pm
|
|
Fred,Blanton guitars didn't taper at the nut the changer was the same spacing as the roller.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 1:16 pm
|
|
Of course, it makes sense to have wide string spacing at the bridge for picking. But I think there is also a good reason to have wide string spacing at the nut [edited] - slanting. It's hard enough to slant at lower frets anyway, and narrower spacing makes it even harder.
I just looked at my Mullen - about 3" string spacing at the bridge, 2.5" at the nut. There's about 3/8" on each side of keyhead to each edge of the top deck to accommodate that much wider a keyhead. So the 1st & 10th string tuning gears would go close to the edge, but not over it.
I suppose other considerations could have been bar length, the fact that players are used to the taper, or it could have just been a holdover from 6-string guitar design, where narrower spacing makes chording easier down the neck.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 27 Mar 2018 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 2:51 pm
|
|
Personally I find something vaguely disturbing about parallel strings. Maybe it's because I'm used to seeing them tapered.
Does anybody else feel that way?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 3:10 pm
|
|
Yes, parallel seems aesthetically wrong; but that may be conditioning/prejudice.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 4:11 pm
|
|
The impression I’m getting so far is “because it’s always been done that way.â€
Regarding slants as mentioned by Dave Mudgett, I think he meant to say “also at the nutâ€. On non-pedal this is a huge concern. Wider spacing would help in one way, but with longer fret spacing down at the nut end (esp. on longer scale necks), a 3.25†bar might be a little short to do slants that go across more than 3 strings. On Pedal Steel, 99% of players are probably not slanting 99% of the time. Almost a non issue.
So there would be no intonation problems, or linkage complications? And a bunch of headstock molds would have to be redone. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 27 Mar 2018 6:09 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Regarding slants as mentioned by Dave Mudgett, I think he meant to say “also at the nutâ€. |
Yup, typo - edited, thanks.
| Quote: |
| ... a 3.25†bar might be a little short to do slants that go across more than 3 strings |
I don't usually slant across more than 3 strings anyway. But I use a 15/16" diameter, 3-9/16" long 12-string bar anyway, so that's not as much an issue. The bigger issue for me slanting is getting the angle right, and that is very, very tough at the lower frets of a pedal steel. The string spacing tends to be narrow anyway, and the narrowing taper towards the nut compounds it.
I think quite a few pedal steel players slant. Not something done all the time, but I find it useful sometimes. Probably the most common for me is a sub for moves in and out of typical F-lever moves. Same notes, but gets there differently. |
|
|
|
Gordon Hartin
From:
Durham, NC
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 6:06 am
|
|
Was thinking about this topic.
It would seem to me that by tapering a neck, Strings 1 and 10 would be slightly longer than Strings 2 and 9, and this would continue towards the middle, with the middle strings 5 & 6 being the shortest.
So the 12th fret harmonics would be slightly off from string to string similiar to this shape (
Not sure if the distance would be noticable, prob less than a millimeter or so, but different than if there was no taper.
Be interesting if non-tapered neck played more in tune?
Gordon |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 9:15 am
|
|
| Gordon Hartin wrote: |
Was thinking about this topic.
It would seem to me that by tapering a neck, Strings 1 and 10 would be slightly longer than Strings 2 and 9, and this would continue towards the middle, with the middle strings 5 & 6 being the shortest.
So the 12th fret harmonics would be slightly off from string to string similiar to this shape (
Not sure if the distance would be noticable, prob less than a millimeter or so, but different than if there was no taper.
Be interesting if non-tapered neck played more in tune?
Gordon |
Aha! Yet another excuse I have for playing out-of-tune up above the 12th fret!
 |
|
|
|
Charlie Hansen
From:
Halifax, NS Canada and Various Southern Towns.
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 9:45 am
|
|
It has to do with intonation.
_________________
I don't know much but what I know I know very well.
Carter S-10 3X5, Peavey Nashville 112, plus Regal dobro and too many other instruments to mention.
Bluegrass Island CFCY FM 95.1 Charlottetown, PE, Canada, on the web at cfcy.fm.
A Touch Of Texas CIOE FM 97.5 Sackville, NS, Canada,
on the web at cioe975.ca. |
|
|
|
Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 1:21 pm
|
|
| Could it be the string effect on the magnetic field would be better thus providing better tone separation? |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 1:37 pm
|
|
The geometry of similar triangles tells us that the bar (provided it is at right angles to the centre line of the neck) intersects all strings in the same ratio regardless of the angle of taper.
So no, taper does not affect intonation.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 2:28 pm
|
|
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| The strings on some steels are parallel. I think this includes Anapeg and the new Sierras. |
Not true about Sierras. We've talked about this, Mike. I've never owned a guitar with parallel strings, and I've had nearly every Sierra model. My current (and likely final) guitar is one of the new Sierras by Ross Shafer.
The spreading taper makes strings easier to bar on the left side and easier to pick on the right side. It's that simple.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 20 Sep 2019 11:53 pm
|
|
Does that argument apply to fiddles?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 21 Sep 2019 7:31 am
|
|
The neck width taper of fretted and non-fretted string instruments is mostly about making it easier for each hand to do the very different jobs required to make music on them, no matter if the strings are picked or bowed. On guitars, it also contributes to how well balanced the body and the neck are.
The reason I asked about steel guitars is because the job of the bar hand is unique among string instruments, and the purpose of the taper is not as clear. Does it really make bar handling easier? Slanting has already been discussed. I suppose the only real way to find out would be to actually play a non-tapered neck steel. |
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 25 Sep 2019 4:09 pm
|
|
The non-pedal experts prefer no taper. - slants
With as many as 10 or 12 strings, I think it's a matter of aesthetics - try to design a peghead whereby the strings exit the roller nuts at the same angle they enter the roller nuts. It would be very fat and aesthetically unpleasing. |
|
|
|
John Brabant
From:
Calais, VT, USA
|
Posted 29 Sep 2019 6:01 am
|
|
So if I were to get fat, would you find me aesthetically unpleasing Jim?
_________________
John Brabant
1978 Emmons D-10 P-P |
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 29 Sep 2019 8:46 am
|
|
| Ha John, even as a thin guy you just aren't curvy enough, (you are disqualified anyway) and no spherical is not a curve i find pleasing. |
|
|
|
