| Author |
Topic: New to U-12 Need Setup Help |
Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 12:16 pm |
|
I have just gone to a U-12 from playing a S-10 E9 and having a blast. I need some opinions on setup from experienced U-12 players. I want to stay with a standard E9/B6 tuning.
I am aware of the Jeff Newman recomended setup. I bought a U-12 from someone that never played a lot of B6 and the setup doesn't seem to work. Before I go changing everything around I want to hear from some other players their setup/opinion.
I have the Emmons A B C pedal setup and B6 pedals 4,5,6 and 7. I have the E lowers on RKL and E raise on LKL.
I have a different change on RKR pulling the 4th string to F# and on LKR I have a half stop lowering the 2nd string D/C# and raising the 9th string ?/D.
The LKR is the one giving me trouble because I can't seem to get a good feel for the 4,5,6 and 7 pedals. I want to be able to play the entire tuning and not a seperate E9 or B6.
Should I do away with LKR ?
What change could I put there that would be used on occasions and fold it up most of the time?
Any help will be greatly appreciated. [This message was edited by Ollin Landers on 28 March 2005 at 01:11 PM.] |
|
|
 |
Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 12:25 pm
|
|
 [This message was edited by b0b on 28 March 2005 at 08:06 PM.] |
|
|
|
Kiyoshi Osawa
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 12:59 pm
|
|
hey there...
I've also recently started on the 12 string (about a year now). My set up is also a newman universal. The F# change you mention was also a big question mark for me.
Some of the Newman copedant charts have it and some don't (see the differences in the ones posted on the carter site, and the ones posted on the jeffran site).
I suppose you made a typo, since you're describing RKL twice. In any case, the lever that lowers the E's should also lower the second string to C#, so you don't need to have the half stop on the other (the one that also raises your 9th string to D).
In J Newman's Universal Video, he has the change on your LKR on LKL, and has the E's lower and raise with the Right leg. Also on this video he does not use the F# change.
As a matter of fact, I was going to post a question about suggested uses for this change... anyway, hope this helps.
If you want more help on getting the Newman Universal Copedant to work for you, send me an e-mail, since I just finished this week changing my copedant to do just that.
------------------
Kiyoshi
------ |
|
|
|
Jon Jaffe
From:
Austin, Texas
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 1:16 pm
|
|
| I agree with Bobby, RKR -E, LKL +E, RKL (9) B->+D and (2) your call, LKV B->Bb, No LKR. BW Moved to P4. I believe Jeff played Day style on 123, so there was some debate about which knee for +E. [This message was edited by Jon Jaffe on 28 March 2005 at 01:26 PM.] |
|
|
|
Gary Jones
From:
Mount Vernon, Wa
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 1:17 pm
|
|
Ollin
The change that would be most useful to you on LNR is lowering string 5, B to Bflat. This is a standard change on the Jeff Newman universal tuning. It is essential for the B6th side of things, and it can also be very nice for E9th playing
You should be able to access this lever from all pedals, without it getting in the way.
Jeff recommended this change on a vertical lever, but I found it worked best for me if I moved the lever over somewhat. I had Jerry Fessenden install that lever in line with pedal 5 when he built my guitar. It works out well for me in that spot.
If you are having problems understanding all the changes on your guitar I highly recommend Jeff Newman's E9th/B6th Universal course. It explains in detail all the pedals and knees, and how they work.
Edited for splelling
------------------
Gary Jones, KLVX-TV
Fessenden S/D-12U
Bunch of cheap guitars
Big ol' pile of half-rebuilt amplifiers
[This message was edited by Gary Jones on 28 March 2005 at 01:19 PM.] [This message was edited by Gary Jones on 28 March 2005 at 06:52 PM.] |
|
|
|
Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 1:29 pm
|
|
I know I went over this post 3 times before I posted it and still made mistakes. Sorry about that. I corrected the original post to reflect the correct changes on RKR.
RKL lowers the E's to D# but does not lower 2nd string D# to C#. I have ordered a pull kit from Bruce so I can have the C# on the 2nd string when I lower the E's with RKL.
I have the BW as pedal 4 and I do have the Newman video for U-12.
What can I do with what I have to get the setup closer to the Newman setup with the least amount of work changing things around?
|
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 1:47 pm
|
|
A few thoughts you wrote:
"on LKR I have a half stop lowering the 2nd string D/C# and raising the 9th string ?/D."
"The LKR is the one giving me trouble because I can't seem to get a good feel for the 4,5,6 and 7 pedals."
"I want to be able to play the entire tuning and not a seperate E9 or B6."
The main purpose of the change that is on your LKR is for E9th usage (not a show stopper for the "One Big Tuning" theory).
I wouldn't change it at this time, and I wouldn't worry about using it with pedals 4-7.
You also wrote:
"I bought a U-12 from someone that never played a lot of B6..."
"I have a different change on RKR pulling the 4th string to F#..."
My guess is that the former owner wanted to play some Ralph Mooney licks, so he dedicated the E>F# raise to that lever.
The standard S12U change that appears to be missing is the B>Bb lower on string 5.
This is often installed on LKV, since it is used in both E9 and B6 (I wouldn't reccomend it for RKR unless you have a lever-lock for RKL).
Do you have a LKV?
All in all, I wouldn't change anything... yet.
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 28 March 2005 at 01:54 PM.] |
|
|
|
Kiyoshi Osawa
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
|
Posted 28 Mar 2005 1:57 pm
|
|
Actually... yeah... uhm, Pete's right regarding the F#. I miss read your post, and kind of assumed the F# change was on string 6, like on Jeff Newman's copedant in the Carter Web site.
Actually that change also works in the reduced Universal copedant that uses 5 pedals and 5 knees. It let's you get rid of E9th pedal 3.
Anyway, he's also right about the vertical lever...
------------------
Kiyoshi
------ |
|
|
|
Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
|
Posted 30 Mar 2005 5:20 am
|
|
Hey Ollin, I think that you'd do better with the E lowers on your RKR as it's easier to hold it there for extended periods if you have to in my experience. I played the U-12 for a lot of years and had this setup:
< ^ > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 < >
F#
C# D# D
G# A
E F# F D#
B A# C# C# C#
G# A A#
F# G# F
E D F D#
B A# C# C# C
G# A
E F# F D#
B C# G#
That worked very well for a lot of years and I'll be using this setup again on another guitar sometime in April....JH in Va.
------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 30 March 2005 at 05:21 AM.] |
|
|
|
Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
|
Posted 30 Mar 2005 6:40 am
|
|
With all the advice I'm getting I think it is going to be best if I just bite the bullet and set it up.
With the current setup being different my question was what would be the best way to get the setup close to the Newman tuning with the least amount of effort and expense. I'm sure if I try to cut some corners I'll end up running in circles.
I've never done something this extensive but if I take it slow I'm confident I can do it. |
|
|
|
Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
|
Posted 30 Mar 2005 6:58 am
|
|
I do agree with jerry about the knee levers.
My copedant is on my web site
scottyhenderson.com along with pics of my ol Dekley!
------------------
Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com
|
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 30 Mar 2005 8:49 am
|
|
Olin, there are two main standards for a U12. One puts the E lower on LKR (Newman), and the other puts it on RKL (Larry Bell's copedant is a good example). Proponents of LKR claim it comes natural to hold this lever to the right with the left leg while using the B6 pedals on the right with the same leg. Opponents claim holding that lever henders their free use of that foot on the B6 pedals. Only you can answer that question. I find that quick lever work on my right leg interferes with smooth volume pedal control, but holding the E lower lever indefinitely for B6 mode works fine with the volume pedal. Also, my left leg is my most active and useful leg for both levers and pedals. Pinning my left knee to the E lower lever would paralize my most useful leg. So for these two reasons I prefer the E lower lever on my RKL. This arrangement also leaves open the possibility to add a middle left knee cluster over the B6 pedals dedicated to B6 changes, the same as many double-neck players have for C6.
In addition to the above, I have two guiding principles that can help guide you for an initial U12 setup. The first one is to keep things as close to the standard E9 and C6 positions as possible (at least initially). This helps with tab, communicating with other players, and trying other guitars. Therefore, I like the Emmons ABC setup with the F lever on LKL, and the 2nd string lower on RKR, for a classic E9 setup. To get the D below string 8, I prefer to lower string 8 on LKR. This duplicates C6 pedal 6 (and eliminates the need for that pedal on a uni), and is the most used change in B6 mode (analogous to mashing the AB pedals in E9). Having it on a knee is quicker than on a pedal, and allows it to be used with any other B6 pedal. Some uni players prefer to raise string 9 to get this D, and some players get this D both ways. Putting the string 9 raise on RKR works well. But I would not want that to be my only way to get this D. I tried this and found that flopping my right knee back and forth between the E lower lever and D lever was slow and choppy compared to getting these two major B6 positions on separate knees. This led to my second principle for setting up knees: don't put two things on the same knee that are needed together quickly (duh).
Other U12 changes that are becoming standard are to put a 2nd string lower to C# on the E lower lever (this is the B6 equivalent of the D on top current standard for C6, and also adds a useful scale note in the E lever minor position for E9), and to put the Boo-wah pedal (C6 pedal  on pedal 4. I have yet to appreciate the advantage of this, but proponents say it can be used with the adjacent pedal 5.
Finally, you don't get full use of the extra low strings on a uni unless you put the A and B pedal and F lever changes on those low strings to duplicate the changes an octave above.
I haven't mentioned LKV. That is the one lever that is not part of the basic E9 or C6 setup, and so it is your opportunity to experiment and find something that is useful to you personally. I have found it works well for the AB pedal down position, because it is so easy to raise your knee and hit it while your toes hold the A and B pedals down. Otherwise, you have to take your foot completely off the pedals and put your toes on the ground, or even worse, raise your whole leg and foot off the ground (always makes me feel like a dog taking a leak). I raise my 1st string and 7th string with LKV to give a 7th with the AB pedals down. That's very useful to me for rock, blues and jazz (actually I raise it a whole step to the major 7th and get the half-step minor 7th by ear), but something else might be more useful for country.
|
|
|
|
John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
|
Posted 30 Mar 2005 11:56 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| One puts the E lower on LKR (Newman), and the other puts it on RKL (Larry Bell's copedant is a good example). |
Jeff's setup is shown here: http://www.steelguitar.com/webpix/playpix/jfnewman.htm
Jeff's setup uses the RKR not the LKR. to lower the E's to Eb. You use a lot less muscle power holding a knee lever when moving your legs outward (rkr an lkl) rather than inward (lkr and rkl). If you don't think so, sit down in a chair, relax, and see which way your knees move.(Hint; it won't be inward)
Jeff "fooled around" with the G# to F# lower on his LKR, but decided not to incorporate that change in his teachings and musical repitoire.
On guitars that don't have quadruple raise fingers or greater, you would have to give up one of the pulls on string 4 to add your E to F# in order to maintain endplate tuning for each pull. I know some people use this change, but the BC pedals will give you this chord construction. Alternatively, you could rig up some extra hardware underneath your guitar to maintain all the desired functions.[This message was edited by John Fabian on 30 March 2005 at 12:03 PM.] |
|
|
|
