pedal problem with old MSA

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I was fooling around with my MSA, thought I'd try the "Franklin Pedal" on my 12-string Extended E9. Some of you might remember I mentioned I changed this Ext. E9 to a Universal setup recently, I did like it but went back to the Ext. E9 because I couldn't get a Universal setup I wanted with only 4 knees.

Anyway, back to the Ext. E9 and adding the Franklin pedal, I put the pull for the 5th string B in the top row of the lowering holes at the changer, since my flat-the-B's lever is in the bottom-row pull. When you step on the pedal, the 5th string raises instead of flats!

When I took out the rod from the lever that flats the B's and put the "Franklin Pedal" rod for lowering the 5th string in the bottow row of lowers, it works fine. Then I put the rod for the B-flatting lever in the upper row, and it won't lower either.

I've noticed this problem on some strings before. Seems like the bottom row of lowers works best, and the top row of raises (if I remember correctly about the raises).

I know these kinds of problems are usually due to the wrong guage of string or the springs being too stiff or too loose. I have normal guages of strings, but maybe it's something with the springs or something else?

I don't want to waste a bunch of strings trying different guages, so before I try that I thought I'd just ask you changer experts. Please help. This particular old MSA is driving me nuts, I can't get the setup I want without running into some problem or other, and I can't run out and buy another steel.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 March 2005 at 07:56 PM.]

Johnny Harris · From: Texas, USA

Jim, what you are describing is really strange.With the pullrod in the upper hole of the lower finger, will the string lower any before it starts to raise?
It has been some time since I have looked at an MSA changer, but my thought at the moment is that with the rod in the upper hole of the lower finger,(closer to the chnager axel) that it is going to require more leverage to pull the finger, which could possibly, if there is some wear in the pivot of the finger, be causing the lower finger to bind on the raise finger. Make sense anyone?

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Hi there Jim,

Way back when, I had an MSA SU12 and I played with tunings like a madman. I really think your problem is the springs. They can fatigue after a while and aren't strong enough to hold the changer in place to counteract a lowering pull like you describe.

If it's that old, I'd strongly suggest that you also disassemble the whole changer and clean it thoroughly with kerosene or something similar. Then lube it with some good oil like 3in1. The whole operation is pretty simple if you are mechanically inclined.

Then, with new springs, it'll play like a new guitar. MSA's last forever with a little TLC.

P.S. Don't forget to clean and lube the roller nuts while you're at it. They get pretty gunked up and get sticky.

------------------
Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

As a test, forget about the pedal and pull rod, and see if you can make the pitch change by pushing directly on the changer from the right end of the guitar, using a screwdriver or something.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Thanks for your help, guys. I took this changer apart about 2 years ago and cleaned and oiled it, it was dirty and sticky up til then but not badly worn, and afterwards has always worked excellently, no problems or hanging-up and always comes back to pitch as well as any steel I've ever had. Everything is still quite clean. I used 3 in 1 to lube it.

I've done copedent changes and disassembly/cleanings etc. for 25 years without a problem, but have never encountered this problem except in the case of a string guage being way off from what it should be or a missing spring.

I took a phillips screwdriver and stuck the point into the upper row of lowers holes at the changer and pushed on the fingers of each string. Unbelievable what I found. Only the 1st and 6th string will lower the strings any more than about a quarter-tone. The 1st and 6th work fine, push far and the strings drop easily to 4 or 5 halfsteps. All the rest flat slightly and then go up in pitch!

Everything else works fine. The changer isn't badly worn and still looks pretty clean. The lowers all work fine from the bottom row. If I hadn't started messing with Franklin pedals and other extra pedals I'd have never noticed this. I've always put my lowers into the bottom row of lower holes, now with the extra pulls I need the other row too and they're not working...

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 March 2005 at 06:59 PM.]

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

What happened with the springs when you used the screwdriver. I bet they're stretched out...they shouldn't (as you probably already know).

Try, while pushing with the screwdriver, help the spring by pushing on it. Does that make the string lower better? If it does, then either the spring is fatigued too much, or the raise/lower pivot is binding.

Are the pull rods pulling straight as they come away from the changer? If not, they could be causing a bind.

Just trying to think on the fly here. These MSA changers are just not real complicated....there must be a simple cause.

[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 17 March 2005 at 07:07 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Jim. Whenever I have tried out some new/interesting/wierd changes on my MSA guitar I HAD to do some tinkering with the springs. In some cases I was getting the same thing you mentioned, lowering to a point and then suddenly raising.
Some of the forumites educated me on how important the return spring ratio to string guage stuff is. Return spring adjusters would be nice on these.

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

Jim,

This might be something to check for ~
Over the years I have serviced several MSA steels that within the changers finger assemblys, the 'scissor-edge' of harder stamped lowering-blade has worn a 'rut' into the softer aluminum string-finger.

This has happened on strings that are being lowered, and generally the problem is not apparent until you cause that string to be lowered more than it has been lowered in the past (where, for example, the string has always been lowered a half-tone and now you want to lower it a whole tone).

I don't have an MSA in front of me to confirm, but from memory, I believe you can check for this condition by removing the string and the return spring and probing with a pointed tool similar as a dental-probe and feel for such wear (unless you prefer to remove the entire changer assembly).

I've noticed this happen on some Sho-Buds as well, where the harder stamped-steel lowering-blade of the changer-finger assembly had 'cut into' the softer cast pot-metal string-finger.

As a 'work-around' to replacing the string-finger, you can slightly bend, to change the angle of the lowering-blade where it contacts the string-finger, so that it is contacting a 'fresh' area of the string-finger.

Play well,
~Russ

I notice you mentioned 'helper spring', but the only spring in the (older) MSA changer was the actual 'return spring'.

[This message was edited by Russ Wever on 17 March 2005 at 07:40 PM.]

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Thanks again for the good ideas, but I'm still not sure what's going on except probably in the springs. I can understand how an old MSA might need some spring tweaks with some real unusual pedal setups, but it really doesn't seem to me that just wanting a string to lower 1 whole tone from the top row of lowers was asking anything that out of the ordinary.

I can't find any signs of wear on the fingers. The really odd thing is, for example I have at the moment no lowers on strings 1, 3, 5, 7 and 11. Both rows of lowers empty. When I push with the screwdriver in the bottom row, all these strings lower smoothly and perfectly to well beyond whatever I'd want. Then, pushing with the screwdriver in the top row, all these same strings lower about a quarter tone and then start raising. In the bottom row they work fine, so would'nt that mean there's nothing catching, binding or hanging up? The view of the springs from the bottom, when pushing with the screwdriver is the same for both rows. Push, springs expand, release, springs retract. Looks the same. I'm still stuck.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 March 2005 at 08:16 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Thanks VERY MUCH for all the help, guys. It seems the problem must be in the springs, so I'll fool with them, try some with less tension and see what happens. Thanks again.

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

Jim,
Something else that comes to mind:
I've worked on a few MSAs where the ends of the lowering-blade of the changer were slightly rubbing against the lateral stop-bar.
It is a rather close tolerance to begin with.
I never did realize what could have allowed this to happen, as nothing appeared to be maligned.
Some thin nylon washers on the screws between the stop-bar and the frame can take care of this.
~Russ

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Thanks Russ, I'll check on that.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Jim.. this may seem stupid,but make certain a broken ball end is not stuck in the changer.. I've seen it happen!! bob

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Simply go to lighter springs on the lowers that are giving you trouble. You can also stretch the existing springs a little by inserting a flat bladed screwdriver between the coils, and twisting them open a little.

Either of these will solve your dilemma.

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Most of what has been diccussed could be part of the problem. However, I suspect that the 1/8" pull rod is most of the problem, especially if they are the aluminum pull rods. Try a 3/32'nd rod or maybe a 7/64'th.
I do not reccommend weakening or stretching the lower return spring as this can and will cause the reverse problem on strings that you raise, especially on strings that raise a whole tone.,,,the lower actuator will come off the stop bar and cancel the raise. Another thing to check is the stop bar plate itself. Alot of the time the lower finger will actually cut a grove in that plate. If that is the case, you will have turn the plate over or replacr it.
Also,,,,when you go to the smaller pull rod you will have to use a different nylon tunning nut. Specify for a 3/32'nd rod or 7/64 when ordering. You usually have to cut the nylon nut shorter for the MSA guitars if you use the same tube spacer that comes on the guitar. I think the thread size die for the 3/32 is 3-48 and the 7/64 is 4-40.
One other thing,,,sometimes you have to go in between the raise and lower fingers with a thin bladed knife and twist the knife some from side to side to try and relieve any binding that may be taking place.
Finally,,,if none of this works, you usually have to disassymble the changer, carefully drill out the brads that hold the raise and lower finger together,,,open that hole a wee bit and rebrad, making sure you don't flatten out the new brad so much that it causes the same binding as before. Those sissors should work real smooth when sliding against each other. I use a fine finishing file to make sure of this.
Hope this helps some.
BB www.bobbybowman.com

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

I should have noted the the new rods should be stainless. It really wouldn't hurt to replace all of the existing pull rods with the 3/32 rods. It'll help your guitar to play easier and smoother.
BB

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Jim: I didn't see this post until just now. I've experienced this problem on MSA guitars for years. You have to lower a string but the raise lever cancels out the lowering of the string's pitch. This problem occurs in the reverse too; you raise a string and the lowering lever comes with it, cancelling out the raise.

As pointed out, it is important to make certain you have the proper gauge of string on the guitar. Sometimes the solution is easy if you just reduce the gauge of the string a tad (one or two gauges). Otherwise, the problem is the retainer spring on the lowering lever. It is most often too strong (and incidentally, all are too short to begin with). There is a way to check to determine if the problem is the retainer spring. Take the spring off completely. With the guitar upside down, use your thumb to hold the lowering lever against its permanent stop. Take your other hand and actuate the pedal or knee lever that is lowering the string that is giving you the trouble. You will notice that you will actually alter the pressure on the lowering lever as it pulls away from its permanent stop. If you can allow the lever to move away from its permanent stop and the raise lever doesn't come with it, it proves that the retainer spring is too strong.

I have corrected this problem by taking the changer out and drilling a new spring-connecting hole at the opposite end of the lowering lever's bottom section. I then cut away about 3/16" of the lowering lever that is not then needed. I then make a new spring, longer by nearly 1 inch. The new spring is obtained at a hardware store (ACE where I live). It is the long screen door springs that are sold there, and they are inexpensive. Surprisingly, this spring material is nearly identical to what MSA put on it guitar to begin with.

I've gotten pretty handy at making individual springs (slightly different lengths) that I cut, sometimes loop by loop, until I get just the right amount of tension for accomplishing a raise and lower on those changer levers, as well as enough tension to return the lowering lever to its permanent stop. In either case, achieving the proper length of the spring will result in the return of the raising and lowering levers to their permanent stops.

Had MSA guitars originally come with longer springs that were also tension-adjustable, I believe this problem would not be so difficult to solve. However, I also see a lot of guitars that have adjustable return springs and the guitar owners have really messed up their guitar's pedal action by not knowing how to adjust these springs properly.

I hope this helps. ...Tom

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 20 March 2005 at 08:36 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Thanks again for all your great advice and knowledge, guys. I appreciate it and am going to check out the springs next. Thanks for the advice on replacing them Tom, that sounds like a very good solution.

Thanks again. I'll let you know what I find.

richard burton · From: Britain

Ernest,
I put much longer return springs on my ZB and Carter, primarily to make full-tone lowers on a wound sixth string much easier.
I have been advocating this idea for a long time, I'm glad other players are thinking along the same lines.
R B

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