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Topic: MSA Mechanical problem |
Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 31 Jan 2017 6:51 pm |
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I've rebuilt a 1973 D-10 MSA for a friend. I removed both changers and cleaned them and it works freely now. Pull rods are all adjusted, but the C pedal (E to F#) won't quite make it to pitch when the raise finger hits the back of the lower finger. I changed the 4th string (.014)again with the same results. Any ideas? Try a .15? I've played MSA's since 1972 and never ran into this problem.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 31 Jan 2017 6:59 pm
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Are you sure that the lower scissor isn't pulling first? That C pedal should go easy.
You could remove the changer and file a bit more relief in the lower scissor, but I really don't think that should be necessary.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 31 Jan 2017 7:37 pm
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I thought about filing more relief on the 4th string scissor. I just hate having to tear it down again. The 3rd string raise is close to hitting the lower also, but it works.
The 4th string scissor raise is raising first as it should, but there's not enough travel before it hits the lowering scissor. Maybe later guitars had more relief?
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 31 Jan 2017 8:32 pm
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I wonder if some scissors have more relief.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 31 Jan 2017 8:41 pm
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That also crossed my mind and it never caught my eye when I was cleaning them. However, why would MSA just add more relief to a few and not all? I think I may just have to bite the bullet and tear down the E9th neck again. I can diagram the puller placements and barrel positions. The whole guitar was a basket case when I started working on it.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2017 5:21 am
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I had the same problem on a D-10 and it must be some adjustment because I am sure it is not a design flaw.
The one I had would go just far enough to tune by ear but not E.T.
Can you get some more travel? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 1 Feb 2017 8:14 am
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That's the problem, I can get plenty of travel, but the raising scissor hits the lowering scissor and ends up pulling the lowering scissor along with it.
I tried another .014 on it with the same results. I could probably go to an .015 and make pitch.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2017 8:25 am
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| This issue is not uncommon in older MSA's. It can be resolved w/o removing the changer however care must be taken not to damage other scissors adjacent to the one in question and I run into it with both the 1st was well as the 4th strings due to the amount of raise required for the full step change. It is a mechanical obstruction and no amount of finessing will help other than mechanical repair. The rods need to be removed from that string as well as the return spring. Pull the lower scissor toward the keyhead and use a dremmel to remove a bit of the lower scissor where the tab from the raise scissor is hitting it - 1/8" is plenty. I'm not sure why this happens at times but I know that it does and I try to check it before rodding the guitar. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 1 Feb 2017 12:16 pm
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Thanks Jim! There are no pulls on the 1st string. The 4th is the only one. The 3rd is barely touching the lower scissor, but it makes pitch to A. I assume Reece gave the scissors more relief at some point. I'm still playing my 1976 U-12 and never had an issue with any of the mechanics. I'll have to see if I have a dremel bit that will get to it.
Thanks again!
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Jordan Beyer
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2017 7:14 am
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| I had this same problem. But I didn't even take apart the changer. I oiled it up and try to increase the travel but nothing would work. One day I went to tune it and it was going to the F# without a problem. Don't know what it could be but it just fixed itself |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2017 2:39 pm
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Dennis.. An 014 is too light.. That is used for the 4th string E, NOT for the 2nd string Eb... I would bet $100 using an 015 would get you where you want to go.. With ease.. The .015 is standard, and I have have no idea why you even have an 014 on the set you are using.. I have used an 016 on a few guitars that were problematic with an 015, and that has worked as well... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 8 Feb 2017 7:52 pm
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Every older Classic I take apart, I make sure there is a notch cut for clearance for the raise tab on the scissor. I have an S12 apart now that has 11 scissors without the relief, and one with the relief. I had problems with one of the first Classics I re-built raising the first string a whole step, so I notch them all now while they are apart. This was a design flaw, and corrected on the later Classics.
You can see the notch on the part on the left.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 8 Feb 2017 10:12 pm
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Bob, I was talking about the .014 on the 4th. The 4th is the raise that I'm having trouble with. I've always used a .014 on the 4th and .015 on the 2nd.
I took the changer apart and notched the 1st, 2nd and 4th while I had it apart. They now look like the pictures that Darvin posted.
After assembling it again, I found that the front of the 4th string changer finger makes contact with the body of the guitar as it nears the F# pull, which also causes the same problem. When the finger hits the body, the lower scissor pulls away from the stop. My final remedy: I also notched the stop plate for the 4th string scissor to rest back a little farther which also allows more travel. Problem solved. Plenty of travel.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Feb 2017 6:03 am
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
Bob, I was talking about the .014 on the 4th. The 4th is the raise that I'm having trouble with. I've always used a .014 on the 4th and .015 on the 2nd.
I took the changer apart and notched the 1st, 2nd and 4th while I had it apart. They now look like the pictures that Darvin posted.
After assembling it again, I found that the front of the 4th string changer finger makes contact with the body of the guitar as it nears the F# pull, which also causes the same problem. When the finger hits the body, the lower scissor pulls away from the stop. My final remedy: I also notched the stop plate for the 4th string scissor to rest back a little farther which also allows more travel. Problem solved. Plenty of travel. |
Duh... my mistake.. Its been a while since I read your original post and confused it with one about not being able to lower the 2nd string.. Getting senile...
On various steels over the years, varying brands, I have had to put in notches in non adjustable stops, machine fingers etc to gain clearance as you have done.. Only thing different is that I have seldom had much problem with not being able to raise a string.. In all the years I have owned and adjusted pedal steels, I have had a LOT more problems with getting a string to lower sufficiently.. There are always ways around it however... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 9 Feb 2017 7:10 am
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| A careful hand with good light and s Drexel tool should get that job done without pulling out the changer. You may have to remove adjancet pulls |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Feb 2017 9:43 am
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If anyone's having this (whole-tone raise) problem on the 1st string of an old MSA, I have an alternate fix, and it can be corrected without removing or grinding on the changer finger!
(PM me for details) |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 10:52 am
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I can't even remember the number of old 70's MSA Classics I have owned and/or worked on.. Its in the dozens for sure.. I have never seen this problem myself.. However i DO know it happens on some MSA's because some good pedal steel owners/mechanics have posted about it here.. Here's what I don't understand.. Most MSA steels I have seen from the 70s' early 80's were inspected by Bud Carter, or a guy named Wally...
Final Inspection and Certified Correct by WALLY [or Bud]
Still see this sticker on most old MSA steels-
So these guitars were sent out operating well, tuning properly, and ready to play, yet at some time during its life, something happens, and now the 4th string won't pull up a full tone.. What happens that causes this?.. We all know for damn sure that Bud Carter never let a pedal steel out the door that won't let the 3rd pedal pull a full tone.
What is the issue exactly, and what could change that makes a properly working 4rd string changer finger stop pulling a full tone?.. A design flaw, is ALWAYS there, and the string should never have been able to pull up a full tone, and we know MSA would not let them be sold that way.. Interested in opinions... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 12:21 pm
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| Bob, while I've never seen the problem on the 4th string, it's rather common on the 1st. Maybe it's due to wear, or a build-up of tolerances. Or, it could be problem with modern string materials, I dunno. I do think that a heavier, or different brand of string can, in some cases, fix the problem. I also think that MSA guitars, like all other guitars, can have their little flaws that get overlooked for some reason. This is, after all, why various changes and improvements get implemented in newer models. |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2017 12:40 pm
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I've never had a problem on the 4th string either. Evidently MSA recognized the scissor limitation somewhere in the early 70's because they changed the design. I'm not sure of the timeline that Bud Carter worked for them, but he may have discovered this problem when he started inspecting the guitars. I think the "Wally" inspected guitars came along later.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 14 Mar 2017 8:13 am
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I finally got around to taking a close look at my 1976 MSA U-12 scissors. All twelve scissors have been factory notched for more travel. So, sometime between 1973 and 1976, Reece gave all of the scissors the extra travel required. The U-12 9th string B to D pull would not have made it to pitch without the factory modification.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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