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Topic: Other ways to drive a changer - curious |
Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 9:39 am |
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There's been talk about electrical drive of the changer - seems like a cool idea, but there are all kinds of down sides (tactile feedback to the pedals, EMI to the pickups, heavy solenoids etc.).
The only mechanical drive methods I've seen are the standard rods, or the cables on older guitars. Have any of you seen other methods, like hydraulics, compressed air or gears and axles? (Rube Goldberg would be proud)
Are there any production guitars that use anything else but pull rods? Not that there's anything wrong with pull rods, just curious.
This forum is a blast...
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 10:11 am
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A hydraulic method may work well and may be very well applied to new or existing guitars. This would eliminate pedal rods and be composed of a multiple cable bundle that simply hooks up with quick release.
Some hydraulics will push or pull at the lever demand. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 10:41 am
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Glenn, your mention of tactile feedback says it all. All attempts to "improve" musical instruments involve interposing something between the player and the business parts, whether it's the strings on a guitar or the holes on a flute, or whatever. A hydraulic system might be more precise and efficient, but would it improve anyone's rendition of Crazy Arms?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Nathan French
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 11:36 am
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I wouldn't be too quick to throw away the idea of electrical linkage. Such an instrument really needs to be built before the tactile issues can be confirmed. More specifically: if the changer follows your pedal movement perfectly then there is no tactile issue, the pedal is now the thing you're feeling. At least that's my thought -- I've owed a pedal steel for all of a week so I could be completely naive.
If something reasonably useful can be built there are a lot of gains that can be made in other areas. You could put the copedent under software control, for instance. You could be more flexible about where pedals and levers are located, moving them around to suit the user without having to rework any mechanics of the instrument. You could also have very uniform pedal action. Assembly cost would be lower too since there wouldn't be much to fine tune. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 12:30 pm
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And if we REALLY get sophisticated we might even be able to remove that player altogether ie: the player piano.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 12:45 pm
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Nathan, there's nothing wrong with a fresh mind, and the idea of a programmable instrument is attractive.
Of course that's nothing new. At 65 I'm too young to remember, but there was an early pedal steel called a Multikord that had a mechanical matrix in the changer.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 2:28 pm
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| Ever though of an electronic pitch changer for each string? |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 7:41 pm
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Hydraulic cable system a la modern bicycles? I imagine it could be smooth but no advantage unless the oil is pressurized which actually could be great because then all pedals could be easy if one wanted them to be. and they are pricey as far as i know.
Re electronics I think it could work, the only downside is the feel of the pitch change. Peavey has licensed autotune-for-guitar and makes 6 string guitars that will adjust and intonate in real time. I think a pedal sensor could be easily developed that could trigger changes with a good feel. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 1:25 am psg
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| Might work but the oil leaks probably wouldn't be very nice. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 5:48 am
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Might work but the oil leaks probably wouldn't be very nice. |
My first thoughts exactly. I've rebuilt too many brake systems (master and slave cylinder kits) to get too excited about that.. 
About the feel thing though, when I was younger I worked on a pipeline construction crew. There was a backhoe operator who could literally do surgery with that thing. He was absolutely incredible; he could 'feel' roots, or water lines, and the hole always looked like it was cut out with a cookie cutter. He told me you learn to 'feel' the hydraulics as you gain experience.
I'd expect a hydraulically operated changer to be the same way; something you just learn. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 7:00 am
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All things can be done with patience and money.
I kindof like the hydraulic concept. But truth is if all steels were hydraulic and someone came up with a simple straightforward method using linkage rods it would be considered genius.
Hydraulics do adapt nicely to electric control. All you then need is a pump and you could use midi to control the electrohydraulic actuator modules.
once robotic, bands could afford steel players again. ☺ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 8:06 am
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I think you'd have to consider the advantages and drawbacks of a different system very carefully. Hydraulics might sound good, but I wouldn't relish the task of bleeding the air out of 12-17 hydraulic lines when service time came. And then, there's the problems of leaks and kinked or broken hoses you'd have to deal with. With those potential problems, I'd have to pass on a hydraulic system.
The idea of electronic servos or linear actuators might work better, but it too would have its share of potential problems. Aside from power supply reliability issues, to get proper tactile feedback and speed would require pretty sophisticated programming and lots of electromechanical complexity, and that's something that they haven't really mastered yet in cars with electronic steering (though they have invested a ton of money trying).
Cables have been tried many times, but they offer too few advantages over a rod-operated system. Rod systems are simple, and inherently easy to change and modify. The only maintenance required is oiling every year or two. In addition, rod systems and their parts are something that will never go obsolete or unavailable, a problem we see all too often with anything electronic in nature. Therefore, I'm inclined to say that rod systems are eminently practical, and still the only way to go.
All IMHO, of course! |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 9:13 am
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I don't want to throw cold water on this discussion but I believe this instrument we play is already priced higher than a lot of pickers are able or willing to play without further adding to its cost and complexity.  |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 9:30 am
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I was just brainstorming for fun - the goal being to make it simpler, not more complicated.
Electronics can make things simpler/lighter/cheaper, and writing code is often easier than unscrewing a nylon nut. In this case though, actuator speed/size/weight/cost, pedal ergonomics (info. tactile feedback issues), power issues, and hearing the whine of the motor drive through your magnetic pickup makes I think electronics in a psg tough.
I was fishing for any ideas - I think the best one out there is a bar slant...
I did actually see a mechanical invention involving a bar where you could move a section of the bar, so you could fret all notes, but move only one,
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 10:33 am
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IIRC, Gene Fields incorporated hydraulics back in the 60's with the early Fender PS210 pedal steel guitars.
I'm not sure what the hydraulics did or how they worked, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading about this. A unique and fascinating instrument design from the mind of one of the greatest innovators ever. |
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Nathan French
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 1:36 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
| I don't want to throw cold water on this discussion but I believe this instrument we play is already priced higher than a lot of pickers are able or willing to play without further adding to its cost and complexity. |
I think an electronically driven steel would be far, far cheaper and simpler to produce. The mechanical linkage of a regular steel is where the cost is. Well, that and being somewhat of a niche instrument (partly because they aren't cheap). |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 1:38 pm
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Yeah, but think of the cost for the generator!  |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 5:37 pm
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Nathan french....do you mean like digital tuning raises like i proposed?
That is where the money can be saved. If you convert the vibrations to digital audio and bend each string with a pedal it could be significantly cheaper.
The only thing would be the feel of controlling the raises and lowers.
Re hydraulics i think it could get messy. Rods are the simplest and best so far. However, is there any way to make the action easier. I know you can add helper springs for raises but what about lowers? Can you split the helper springs to half-help a raise and half-help a lower? |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2017 10:16 pm Other ways to drive a changer-courious
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In 1968 I was working for Westinghouse in light bulb production. I was planning to build a home made steel guitar. Our floor engineer was a Mechanical and electrical engineer. We spent many hours kicking around different pull systems. We was surrounded by machines using, Hydrolics. Air cylinders, Eletrical selenoids, Small directional motors running acme screw controls. Moving all kind of production equipment. We seriously discussed O ring piston master cylinders with small o ring slave cylinders pulling the changer fingers. But we would have had to run a tube or hose from the pedal or knee lever solid to cut oil leaks. That would make the guitar one solid unit, No tear down and put in a case.
After several months of study, discussion and experiments we decided to use, A rod and lever pull system like all builders at the time and to this day to make a steel that can be put in a small case. I still think about it when the moon is full. My tinkering mind won't forget thinking about it. |
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Nathan French
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 9:23 am
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| Stephen Williams wrote: |
| Nathan french....do you mean like digital tuning raises like i proposed? |
No! I would never put anything funky in the signal path. You'd have to do away with electric pickups and put in piezos and do a lot of modeling. Fender did this with their VG Stratocaster that they sold briefly. The videos I saw seemed convincing enough but... meh.
No, I am going down the path of some kind of electric motor system. Made a single string prototype a while back, it seemed promising. I've got a 10 string prototype in progress on my bench. |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 11:15 am
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Do you have a problem with EMI (magnetic) getting into the pickup? I built a single-string thing using a solenoid. It worked, but took lots of current.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Nathan French
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 11:19 am
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| Glenn Demichele wrote: |
| Do you have a problem with EMI (magnetic) getting into the pickup? I built a single-string thing using a solenoid. It worked, but took lots of current. |
That's something I need to look into soon, my 1 string prototype didn't have a pickup. The way I've laid things out it would be fairly easy to enclose the motors in a faraday cage. I'm more concerned about the power supply and other electronics. |
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Jaap Postma
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 9:39 am
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Here's a project I remember reading about a few years ago. It's a telecaster with several servomotors installed to create an electronic string bending system, sort of like a cyborg b-bender. It's not a steel, but I think it's a pretty decent proof-of-concept. I can't hear any extra noise (acoustic or electronic) from the motors and arduino.
https://hackaday.com/2014/07/09/servobender-the-electronic-pedal-steel/
edit: This album (linked in the above article) has some great descriptions of how the project was constructed and goes into detail describing how he took precautions to eliminate noise from the motors, PWM signals, and microcontroller using counterweights and sheilding.
https://imgur.com/a/a0ZlW |
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DG Whitley
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 11:48 am
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As was mentioned earlier, I am not trying to throw cold water on these ideas, but all I see in any adaptation is added weight to an instrument that people are already complaining about weight-wise.
Unless you can lower (or even maintain) the present weight of PSGs, I think you are headed down a long road.
Just my 2 cents, or maybe less. |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 2:18 pm
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Couldn't agree more about the weight thing, but it could be lighter if you got rid of all the rods, metal underneath, and the heavy pedal bar.
The biggest thing for me is that I like the arcane mechanical nature of the instrument, and you really don't need electrical power to play it.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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