Sho Bud Professional

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Hey Folks,
I just bought and early '70s Sho Bud Professional and am working on getting it set up how I like. The front neck is all set with standard 3x4 E9, which I'll keep, and the back neck was set up in C6 5x1. This guitar has a rack and barrel system, something I have never laid hands on.

I was hoping to pick some folk's brains on a few issues. Disclaimer: I spent a couple hours under is yesterday and have a medium understanding of how it works. I don't know the names of any parts. I will try to use pictures if there is a communication block.

Ok, so I am trying to set up the back neck in this Cajun G tuning I use. It sounds like this:https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSdB74zl4cE

and looks like this:

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

My memory is kinda vague on the rack and barrel setup, but I remember moving the ball on my footpedal to the hole closest to to you,as I think there are 2 holes on each pedal so moving the ball connector away from the pedal rack shortens the throw but will be a little stiffer.With luck John Billings,a rack and barrel master,will drop in and help u work it out...Stormy Winking

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Each finger has three rivets they pivot on. Make sure each of them has a drop of oil. Otherwise, you can see the lowering arm (on that variety it's not really a scissor) pull off the stop bar (that little box frame that the slots in the fingers), so it stops raising.
Make sure that return springs are set tight enough (but not too tight.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Lane,
I'm not quite following about finger and stop bar.

I did mess with the Phillips head screw attached to the springs right below the rods. It didn't seems to have much effect if they were tighter or looser.

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Sorry I'm not sure how to write a copedent and make it line up.

Tuning High to low***: G D B G D B G D B G

P4 string 2 & 5 up a full step

P5 string 3 & 6 up a half step

P6 string 1 & 4 up a full step

P7&P8 top four string down a step

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Somewhere there are pictures of the Sho-Bud fingers, but I'll try to explain them.
The "fingers" are the entire bit that the strings attach to and that the rods pull on.
On your Bud, look at the bits that the pullrods go through. There are two flat bars per finger, with right angle bends at each end. The top bar is for raises, and the bottom one is for lowers.
Look at the window in the endplate: just inside the endplate is almost a window frame, and it sticks out into the underside of the guitar. Both of the flat bars have grooves that the window frame sticks out into/the window engages the slots in the bars. This window frame is the "stop bar." It stops the bars from going farther away, and establishes the at-rest position.
The two bars are joined by another flat steel bar that is riveted to the aluminum finger that the strings attach to. Each string will have three pivot points that want a single drop of oil once a year or so: where the aluminum finger meets the link bar, where the raise bar meets the link bar, and where the lower bar meets the link bar.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I finally found the picture. It shows the three different types of fingers Bud used. Yours is the one on the left

_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Ok I see that part. What type of lubricant would you put in there?
I messed around with it some more. I still can't get my top g string to pull to an A. I also looked into moving the ball on the foot pedal but the hole is stripped. I'll have to deal with that later. D and e pedals work and play in tune but still have large travel. I have a .012 for the G, a .017 for the D string and a .020 for the B. Do you all think I need a different gauge to get it up to an A?

I sanded the wheels of the roller nut with 1500 grit. Problem solved. No buzzing.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

When you say you can't get the G# (you're calling it a G, but I'm assuming it's a G#) to A, let's look at what's going on. When you press the pedal, the raise rod pulls on the bar I shaded red here. Are you saying there's not enough travel in the rack (adjust the stop to give you more travel), or is the lowering bar (shaded green) pulling away from the stop bar/window frame?

if the lowering bar is pulling off the stop bar, first give them a drop of oil, as friction will change which bits move.
To oil them, these spots right here need just a drop about once a year or so

If the lowering bar is still pulling off the stop bar, tighten the return springs a little.

Most manufacturers say that light machine oil (3 in 1, sewing machine or gun oil) is fine, and many people prefer the aerosol Teflon sprays, where the liquid is a carrier that evaporates leaving a PTFE film. Triflow is a commonly used brand, but this is easier to find and cheaper

_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Hi Andrew,

I had a similar dilemma. Got another steel, but hung on to my 6139. Want to PLAY NOW, maybe upgrade the Bud later.

Sounds like you have a rack and barrel undercarriage, with single lower/ single raise fingers. Single/single is a misnomer, should be called infinite raise/infinite lower. Any pedal or knee can raise or lower any string up or down at least 2 semitones. And you can disregard how that string is pulled by another pedal or lever. As long as your P6 rack moves far enough, raising string 6 from G to A should be doable. If it won't, back off the pedal stop screw to allow P6 to move the rack more before it hits the stop screw.

If your guitar had cross shafts with two-hole pullers (not rack and barrel) then we need a different conversation.

Other changes activated by the P6 racks (aka baskets) may need adjustment (tune barrel length, or loosen set screw in the barrel and adjust its position on the rod relative to contact with the rack. You need to allow the rack some free travel before it starts pulling rods.

Attachment point of pedal rod on the pedal simply affects leverage distance/force tradeoff, but not how far it will move rack, and pull on changer fingers.

Great sounding guitars. Mine played so much better after disassembly/clean/lube/reassembly of the changer.

You can't "time" the pulls to begin and end together. But that is a small price for the resulting flexibility.

One drawback is the challenge of adding knees because they need new racks. Does anyone supply them? I was hoping to get mine from James, alas, no joy, and some tears. I really liked James.

Folks have added new knees with two-hole pullers on cross-shafts (axles) to rack and barrel guitars.

Lane, please offer input to the contrary. I welcome it, And always learn when you do. Thanks, pal.

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Some photos of undercarriage just so we are sure that it is indeed what I say it is!

I do mean G to A which is my first string. Again, here is a pic of the copedent I am trying to do. I had my old Fender 400 set with copedent. I am hoping to have this and a standard E9 at my disposal.

OK, So when I depress the pedal, The Red Bar moves out. (The green bar moves up ever so slightly. which makes sense if you think about the very small "u" shaped path of the rack.)

I used some teflon pub (Blaster brand) and I have adjusted the pedal stop screw a bit. This is what I am call the Pedal Stop screw:

This does allow me to get my String 1 and 4 up a full step but again the distance the pedal has to travel is so far that this is barely usable.

Same with 3rd string lower.

The person who had the guitar before me took it to Williams and had it oiled up and put two more knees on.[/img]

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Also, I read a past post from Ricky Davis saying that you want the barrel to touch the rack ever so slightly. The play in the racks is enough slop. If there is space between, the Barrels wont stay in tune.

But I have also read from other folks that 1/64-1/32 should be between the Barrel and the rack.

Not sure what to do there....

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

To shorten pedal travel, put the pedal rod in the hole closest to the axle. Simple leverage says you'll get the same amount of rotation in less pedal travel.
Since you don't lower that string, you can also use the lowering rack (but still use the raise bar) to get a tad more leverage. If you decide to lower 1 later, you'll obviously lose that option.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Gary Thorsen · From: Oregon, USA

My understanding with the rack and barrel is that there HAS to be enough slack or play, meaning distance between the barrel tuners and the rack, to allow some clearance or you'll be constantly over-tuning the guitar. You may wind up with a little more pedal travel on the pedals that you want to bend a whole tone but they will be silky smooth if you've taken the time to clean the changer out and lubricate it (and the rest of the mechanism) properly. My advice is to error on the side of more pedal travel and more slack between the rack and the tuning barrels. The smaller plain strings will need more travel to bring up to pitch. You can gradually decrease the slack until you start to have tuning issues and then back them off a touch. Thankfully,I was shown these tricks by ShoBud guru Bob Muller. For a number of reasons, you've got what I consider to be one of the most versatile and rich sounding guitars ever built. I play mine exclusively on country shows and LOVE it. Personally, in my opinion, this beauty is what a steel guitar should look and sound like and it's well worth the time to figure out how to properly setup and tune that old guitar - they do work! Happy steeling!

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

I'll put some space between there. Once I give that a try,I'll report back. .My guess is I will need to clean the mechanism sooner rather than later. It's pretty gunky looking. I suppose I'll have to pay someone to do that. Might be more than I can pull off. I did take apart and overhaul a fender 1000 but this looks more complex.

Wow I love the finish on that sho bud. Mine is just brown. Makes me a little jealous!!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Actually it's dead simple.
Loosen the set screws on the barrels.
Slide the rods out.
Loosen, then remove, the return springs.
Using some sort of drift, drive out the axle
Now the fingers just drop out. Clean them. Lube them.
If you look at the pic I put up, you'll see the fingers don't come apart.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! There is no way to get those two Gs to pull to As. I be tried everything here and everything I can think. I cannot figure it out!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

They should go. What is stopping them?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

So I set the barrels so far back that I had to actually had to hold the barrel with my fingers to get it started until it touched the rack. Without this measure taken, very quickly, the barrel would tighten into the rack before reaching pitch and pull up the principal pitch up. Even with this measure, I still couldn't get it all the way up before it would pull the original tone sharp. Once the principal tone is sharp, there's no amount of rod tightening that changes the relationship between principal pitch and the raised pitch, thus, stopping the change.

I tried using the lowering rack for more leverage but my rods are too long and it caused binding elsewhere and rendered each previous lowering rack useless. I also tightened the springs but they really seem to have little effect either way.

Could this just be a string gauge issue? I don't know what else to try!!

I still have long pedal travel on the whole step raise I've successfully placed. I've moved all the balls on the pedals furthest out but it is still super long. Longer than my fender 400 whole step raises!. I'm hitting some dead ends here...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Did moving the pedal rod over get you more travel?
What gauge strings are you using?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Andrew Srubas · From: Minneapolis, MN

Ist strings is a .012
2nd string is a .017
3rd .020
4th .024w
5th .034
6th .038
7th .046
x
x
x

Do you mean Route the raising Rod through the lowering basket?
Yes, this worked but hits all the previous baskets rendering them useless. Plus, the rods I have are too long so they stick out weird. I am too chicken to commit to cutting them. I may try to find some more rods though.

Dang, Lane! I am going to have to send you thank you gift basket or something!! You are really trying to help me out. THANK YOU!

AJ

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm driving a semi right now. I'll tint a picture you show what I'm on about when I get done.
I'd forgotten that using the lowering basket would create interference unless it was the last pedal (closest to the changer. Or you can call me at 816-206-0239
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

You have one more place to adjust leverage.
You're using the holes in the pedal cranks I've highlighted in red, the middle of three.
If you use the ones I've highlighted in blue, you'll get to the stop (in green) faster, but it'll be stiffer.
If you like easier pedal effort and don't mind a longer pull, hook your pedal rods to the ones I've highlighted in yellow.

_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

The rack should hit the barrel soon, then start pulling the raise rod. You allowed more movement by backing out the stop screw. If it still won't raise G to A then watch what's happening in the endplate. Check if the lowering finger begins to move with (follow) the raise finger. That can be caused by (a) debris in the changer, or (b) not enough tension in the lower return spring.

Your guitar has adjustable lower return springs. Adjustments are a row of screws at the bottom edge of the endplate. Try turning that one clockwise for more tension to keep the lowering finger from moving.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Andrew just wondering but are you working with the thinnest string first and then going to the next largest on that change. If not you will chase your tail.

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