14 strings? Why/Why not

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Might as well add the very silent minority to the other threads. Describe your tuning/setup as well as why.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Why not?? . I can barely keep up with the 10 I have now!!.. THATS why not!

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Would that many strings add to the cabinet collapse situation? The more strings, the more pressure would be added to the cabinet.

If you are doing a single, the low notes would be nice but would clash with a bass player in a group setting.

These are just some observations.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I don't see any need for more than 12. A 12 string pedal steel has full range and all of the notes. What is the use of the extra 2 strings?

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Quite simply, I think they pose too many intonation problems.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I think fourteen strings is a great idea. No compromises as far as notes left in or out, and an extended range. I can't see it going much beyond that, though. Above the high G# and below a low, LOW E, scale length becomes an issue. I can see integrating bass strings in some way like chas's Guitarzilla, though. An instrument with that kind of range would be a lot of fun.

If you're not playing a strummable, open tuning, then why not add more strings? I'm sure I'd be able to find uses for them.

-Travis

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I had a Sierra Crown Series S14U for a while. I really liked it, but found the S12U (with string 12-B lowering to A on the A-pedal) covered the low end as far as I felt I needed to go.
With regard to the intonation problems that have been coming up in these threads, I hear more D10 and S10 players with intonation problems than any other configuration, so I can't buy that one when it comes to other configurations. They all have their pro's and cons.
But with that said, string 14-G#, being as thick and loose as it is/was, does require a bit if "heightened awareness" in the heat of the moment.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

More good points, Pete. I kind of don't get the whole intonation issue--I don't understand why the E9/B6 is supposed to have problems (I tune ET). If it's just a question of the low strings being a bit floppy, then I can understand, but you can get around this with good technique.

-Travis

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

I had one long ago. Sold it when I got my S12 Kline. Wish I had kept it.
The best way to understand the WHY of a S14 is to look at the tunings of those who have used them. The two major players are/were Julian Tharpe and Bill Stafford. I do NOT count myself in there--n as I had it to fool with and it was quite early on.
Wish I had one to play with. Would settle for a S13...
It all has to do with what you hear in your head, and how you see that expressing itself through what you play.

JW

Ricky Littleton · From: Steely-Eyed Missile Man from Cocoa Beach, Florida USA

I am pretty sure if and when I order a "new" guitar, it'll be an S-13 or 14. I have some ideas jotted down to try out when it happens.

May be a while yet, wife is own me about meanial things like house and car payments, groceries blah, blah, blah!!!

After 8 years she still doesn't understand the whole idea about "toys" in a guys life!!!

Ha-ha! Trust me guys, thats pure "shop talk" and I reserve the right to neither confirm nor deny ever having said it!

Ricky...

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd, Peterson VS-II Tuner
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah, PX4 Pandoras Box

Perry Hansen · From: Bismarck, N.D.

I played on Bill Staffords steel one time and had a ball. I was definately lost, but I know I could never master it the way Bill did so I'll stick to my U12.

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

14 string?
G-D-B-G-F#-D#-G#-E-B-G#-F#-E-D-B

yeah, that would work for me!
Dave

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'74 MSA D-10 8&4, BMI S-12 8&5, Nashville 112

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I did ask Reece if he could make an S-14 these days, he said not at the present time. Possibly not ever. It would take a new mold for the composite bodiy.

But I can hear harmonic reasons in my head for this.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 December 2004 at 12:35 AM.]

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

David H; How about adding a few frets (longer neck) and C,G,A,C,E,G,C,D,E,G,C,D,E,A where the A is below the last C?

= 1,3,6-13,1,3,5,1,2-9,3,5,1,2-9,3,6-13

P1P2 mahes the IV neck, ..P3 opens the 13 series necks, L> gives the V neck, and P5 thru P9 give the BIG V (like C6) neck.

If we now consider the BIG V neck as a I neck (as in C6), we have the I,II,VI neck sequence available, same as the C,D,A necks in C6.

b0b, now that is FULL!!

[This message was edited by ed packard on 27 December 2004 at 08:11 AM.]

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Indeed, Why Not? Having played D10, S10, 12U and 14U, I find I make equally as much racket and about the same number of "clams" on either tuning. Being an aging weekend warrior average player, I don't think I'll ever be asked to record anyone else's signature licks, therefore the fact that 99% of the pros play D10 would not be a factor for me. Although I have given in to the temptation to add pulls on my D10's for the latest licks etc., I find I still have my own style and sound. I think the important thing to remember is that the wonderful steel guitar voice is available on all tunings and string combinations. Anyway, we should not be sheep, but be innovative and individuals.
I have many regrets about abandoning my Sierra SCM14 after having spent so much time getting acclimated to the E9/B6 tuning. I had a D10 at the same time as the Sierra and an S12U and could make the transition from one to the other quite easily after a while. Tuning the D10 C neck to B was a major help. If a C tuning was required for keys where open strings are commonly used, I could stick a capo under the strings.
I am so fortunate to have 2 wonderful Mullen D10's 8+8 but
I'd love to have another 8+7 Sierra gearless 14 stringer. I would not use the high G# but rather start with the normal F# right on down and add the normal D change as on the reg. 10 strg. tuning. This would require 13 strings. How I would use the 14th string is not known as yet. I continue to believe all the negatives and tuning anomalies can be dealt with successfuly with today's technology.
Our D10 heroes have their own reasons for not playing the so-called Universal tunings. These guys are of genius status though, and could do amazing things with it IMO if they choose.
I would like to see more learning aids specific to the standard E9/B6 tuning available to the beginner player though. Converting standard 10 string stuff is too much to ask I think. Too distracting for me.
As to the string spacing, I just cannot imagine a builder re-designing a changer for the relatively small number of 12 or 14 stringers. I'd like to hear from some of the builders or someone that has had experience in this area. Ed? I have never noticed any difference in spacing on guitars of the same brand.
This long-winded post expresses some of my thoughts on the subject.
YMMV, however.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

JO;
Sho-Bud pro, Sierra Session series, Sierra crown, & elegante all measure 11/32" center to center for the strings.

How do you feel about the string taper issue from bridge to nut? My new one is 11/32" S to S both ends.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Just to clarify my mention about string spacing, I am thinking it is probably the same for a specific brand regardless of the number of strings.

Ed, I don't have an opinion on the equal end to end spacing. I've never played or seen one like that, but I'd like to know more about the reasoning and advantages.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Jerry; I suspect that the changer sets the string spacing for most manufacturers, ..11/32" seems to be the De facto standard these days.

I believe that PEE WEE Whitewing has a Pedalmaster with string separation about the same at both ends. I modified one of my Sierra Session units (14 string) to that configuration. Hammer on and pull off moves are easier for me. Allows less low string noise when you want to avoid it. Tilted bar noodling feels mighty nice. It lets me move the changer to the players left (spacing issue again) and integrate the keyless/gearless tuner into the changer mechanism; all tuning adjustments are made with the bar hand (no picks).

Now the end of the string with the most contribution to sustain/tone is at the players right. I have interchangable bridge "thingees" that have different acoustic impedances, hence give different sustain/tones, ..changable without detuning/retuning.

Lots of other crazy changes to this new animal, like hollow neck with dropon neckplate allows lots of room for circuitry.

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

HI Ed, glad to see this post and all the work you are doing. Anxious to play one of those soon.
Yes, Pee Wee's Pedamaster has the same string spacing end to end. The spacing on my new EXCEL Superb model has been increased to almost 11/32-but not quite. It is a big asset in the hammer on/off notes, especially with the bigger gages on my instrument. I now use a 120 ga on my 14th string-tuned to E. Really nice for subtle notes in both the E and B tunings.
Keep up the god work.

Bill Stafford

Ron Castle · From: West Hurley,NY

Well I love my keyless 14str Fessy.
Initially there were some intonation problems
but Jerry Fessenden fixed it thru great effort,
despite the fact that I had to brow beat him into building it in the first place.
The 14 has 6k & 9p and is set up a bit unusual - I call it 'normalized C69' and I have gotten very comfortable with it.
heres the setup
sorry about the with- dont know how to limit it



Str	note	LL	LV	LR	P1	P2	P3	P4	P5	P6	P7	P8	P9	RL	RV	RR


1	G															


2	E						F		Eb							


3	D	Db	Eb													


4	C										D		C#	B		


5	A									Ab	B	B				Bb


6	G			F#		A		F							G#	


7	E				F#		F		Eb							


8	D	Db	Eb													


9	C												C#	B		


10	A									Ab		B				Bb


11	G			F#		A		F								


12	E			D	F#		F		Eb							


13	C												C#			


14	A

[This message was edited by Ron Castle on 28 December 2004 at 04:46 AM.]

[This message was edited by Ron Castle on 28 December 2004 at 04:47 AM.]

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Sir William of Stafford, ..be nice or I will tell what place you are hanging around in Texas! You have a lot to account for, like getting me hooked on 14 stringy thingees.

My new machine is set up to hold up to a 0.125 gauge on the bottom. The size I want is 0.112 as the E string series is 0.014, 0.028, 0.056, so 0.112 is next.

The changer/tuner combo and the string terminator block that I modified my Session series to is mighty nice, so I had that done on the commercial model (Sierra rises again).

Ron: Nice to see some creative work re tuning/setup. C69 as you have done it would place the E9/B6 like structure at the 4th fret if I see it rightly.

Ron Castle · From: West Hurley,NY

Yes Ed, 4th Fret would be E/B
I often change str 13&14 and RV, but have settled on this for the time being

Bill Stafford · From: Gulfport,Ms. USA

ED, that was a type... lol but it must be working anyway...whoops, left out another "o". must be the cold weather as it is in the middle 60s here today..

BS

Eugene Cole · From: near Washington Grove, MD, USA

Winnie wrote: “It all has to do with what you hear in your head, and how you see that expressing itself through what you play.” My thanks to you Winnie for summarizing a complex concept in to clear and simple language. I concur.

I have owned a variety of PSG's over the years including U12’s, D10’s, S10’s, and a U14. Until yesterday the only 2 I chose to keep were a U14 B6/E9 Sierra and a D10 MSA. I love the range that the U14 has. The Sierra (per my recent moods) certainly does not hold its own against the MSA in the realm of desirable complex harmonics, but the low range and broad-range made it a keeper. Intonation is simply not a problem with the 14’s I have owned and played. I am very curious which 14’s are sustaining the opinion that 14’s have too many intonation problems. Anyone? Beuhler? Beuhler? Anyone?

Regarding low notes which “clash with a bass player in a group setting”: this problem is rooted in something other than the 14 string guitar. The solution is the classic 3 P’s: practice, practice, & more practice. This said I have certainly encountered a few insecure bass players that acted downright possessive and territorial when other players would invade what they felt was their segment of the audio spectrum.

By the way the topic “14 strings? Why/Why not” is a great question. The “why not” will vary from person to person some factors are: weight, size, quality to price ratio, hand size, and neck width. For me the answer to why is: 14 strings extends the tonal range available to me when I am playing. Whether your mindset is primarily that of an emulator or that of an innovator (see Winnie’s comment) will fundamentally alter the perspective from which an individual will evaluate this topic. If you want to emulate the sounds and the styles of the people that realized commercial success with a recording of a given song then more often than not you will probably not have need of the extended range which is available on a 14 string guitar.

I realize that I am about to stretching the scope of this topic a bit; hang in there for a few more sentences. Travis touched on the subject of the constraints which are corollary to scale length. A recurring frustration I have is the lack of availability of PSG’s with scale lengths of greater than 25 inches. I am approximately 5’ 10” which typically means that I like to install a “lift kit” on my steels so that I am more comfortable. The idea of a D10, D12, U12 or U14 with say a 28” scale length tuned down 3.5 or 4 steps to approximately A9/E6 has been rolling around in my head for many years. But since they are not readily available new; they are certainly not available used and closer to my price range.

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Regards
-- Eugene ^at FJ45.com

Click Here
Sierra U14 MSA D10 and almost nothing in the Bank. 8^)

Gabriel Aaron Wynne · From: Johnson Valley, CA

Check this out: I've got a 1952 Fender 85 string pedal steel. It's got 18 pedals and 22 knee levers. I use a chrome Louisville slugger for a bar and it only weighs a cool 359lbs in the case. It's got such a sweet tone with my Crate BX-15.

Up yours.

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aaron

[This message was edited by Gabriel Aaron Wynne on 29 December 2004 at 12:19 AM.]

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