U-12 or Ext E9th

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

What if any would be the difference between an Ext E9th and a U-12 "mechanically"? Is it just the setup or is there something else I'm not thinking of?

I am considering going in the U-12 directions and of course the choice of guitars is what I'm looking at. I have seen a lot of Ext E9th lately and not so many U-12's for sale.

Can I take any 12 string guitar even if it was originally setup Ext E9th and change the copedent to a U-12?

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

An U12 would probably have at least 7 pedals while an ext E9 could have from 3 pedals and up.
So changing the setup from extE9 to U12 might not be possible because not enough pedals.
Changing the setup from U12 to extE9 would be "no problem" if you can find a useful setup with all those pedals.
My S12 ZumSteel came with a U12 7+7 setup and I changed that to a 7+7 ext E9 setup that made more sense to me.
But most important is that an U12 would require at least 7 pedals. All the other mechanics should be the same.

Bengt Erlandsen

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Ollin, I orginally had an extended E9th 12 string ShoBud that I bought in '77. It had the usual 3 on the floor and 4 knee levers. I added and added to it 'till I eventually had 8 floor and 7 knee levers. I eventually got a 12 string U-12 steel but I still miss that old 'bud. It just got better the longer I had it and I'm sorry I got rid of it. As far as your question... Any professional quality S-12 can be made into a universal by adding levers and pedals. I was lucky enough to live close to Blackie Taylor's Steel shop in southern California. My 'bud had parts from Emmons, MSA, and others to make it work but it did. A good steel repairman can make it happen for you and a lot of times at a better rate for your cash flow.....JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

rpetersen · From: Iowa

Olin - You can get by with as little as a 5x5 pedal and lever system - That can be accomplished by omiting the Boowah pedal and the standard "C" pedal on the E9th. -you can also get some of that back with knee levers, depending on what you want. I'll try to sen you an email on a tuning I had figured out.

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Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band
Mullen Universal 12 - 1975 Session 400 - Nashville 1000

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I think it would be best to just go for the E9th/B6th Universal tuning & get it all. Even if your not into the 6th stuff now, later you probably will be. That 9th string on E9th can be had by putting a raise on the 9th string B & pulling it to a D, or you could lower the 8th E to a D, but on the 9th string it is much more useful. I have played D-10's & S-12U's, I like them both but am presently playing a Diller S-12U with 8&5 [soon to be a 6th lever added when I get time].

Ernie Pollock

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I'm with Ernie. I have played the 7+4 U12 configuration and the Ext 12. My other Uni was 8/7 with a lock. I say look for as much "cabbage" as you can get.
It's a lot easier & cheaper to take stuff off than adding new parts. [If you're buying new, extra pedals and knees are additional cost though if that is an issue.] 8 pedals is not too many. Nor is 7 or 8 KL's IMO. I don't understand why people consider dropping pedals and knees when they convert from D10 to U12. You need all the changes.
A couple KL's are common to both tunings but I found on the Sierra I could have the 4 and 8 raise and lower levers on the LK and still reach all the way across to pedal 8 without any problem.
Some say it is too crowded with more than 4 but I don't agree.
Whatever works for you though!

Sidney Ralph Penton · From: Moberly, Missouri, USA

well you learn things every day if you just pay attention. i thought that extended E9th was just another way of saying U12. the U12 i know is both necks, E9th and C 6th put together. the U12 i had pedals abc was just like a 10 string and pedals 4567 was for the C6 part. i am just learning and 10 strings was a lot and when i got the 12 string well it was just too much for me at one time. if you have C6 know how then a U12 is good. but i like my SD 10 and nothing like a zum steel. thanks doc

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zum SD10 peavy vegas 400 peavy special 212

David Doggett · Posted 24 Jan 2005 8:43 am

Ollin, on the used market the difference between a U12 and ext. E9 is less than it would cost you to add pedals to make an ext. E9 into a U12. Even new, the cost of ordering the extra pedals of a U12 is probably less than it would cost you to add the extra pedals later. So money-wise you're better off getting a U12. The worst that could happen is that you wind up with some extra pedals to experitment with on ext. E9.

But the main reason I would advise getting a U12 is because to me it is easier to play in the E9 mode, and you get the whole B6 mode to play with. After playing 10-string E9 for several years, I got an ext. E9, and soon also bought a U12. The extra strings on the bottom of the E9, plus having to skip the 9th string, just made the grips too difficult for me on the bottom. When I got the Uni, it solved all that. Every string below the 7th is good. You can't make a mistake down there. And I actually found the D on the lever easier to play than on the 9th string. Blocking issues dissapeared, and I like the sound of lowering and raising the D with the lever. It took a couple of weeks getting use to the extra strings and having the D on a lever. At first I marked my 8th string with a red marking pen to help me adapt to the exta strings (the center line of the neck where the fret markers line up, is shifted from between strings 5 and 6 to between strings 7 and 6, the break between the wound and unwound strings). After a couple of weeks I was home free.

An ext. E9 has only two new strings below the low B of a 10-string. The Uni has 3 new strings. You get a low 5th that is not there on ext. E9. But most important, that last string is the root of the minor played with the A pedal. This is a very useful note for rock, blues and jazz. When you add that to all the B6 stuff, for me the Uni is just a much more interesting tuning.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I played the U-12 for around 20 years and liked it fine but always felt I was missing something along the way. I'd heard about some players who were dropping the low C note on their inside neck and adding a D string in the 7th spot and moving the C, A, & F down a slot. I tried it on my U-12 which was basically having an extended E9 tuning and lowering my 9th string D to C# on the same lever that lowered the E's a half. I tried this out for a short while and eventually started tuning my 9th string to C# and haven't looked back. I don't miss the BooWah thing on the low B string as the only thing I ever really used it on was NiteLife which I haven't played with a band in over 10 years. I still have the other standard 6th changes except for the II/7 pedal where I only lower the 7th string to F and raise the 12th string to F. I haven't experienced any situation on the bandstand that couldn't be handled well using this setup and it puts the 9th string D right where it should be with my LKR. Also with the E's lowered you have a scale starting on string 10 where your first three notes are in the open tuning (B C# D#) and then for the 4th you just let off the knee lever, the 5th of the scale follows on the 7th string and the 6th on the 6th string, etc. I don't think I'll ever go back to the regular U-12 again as I think my playing has actually improved especially in swing style soloing since I've done this......JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The basic mechanical difference is that the U-12 has more pedals. I've never been comfortable with more than 4 or 5 pedals myself. I have a hard time finding those inside pedals with my foot.

The difference in tuning is just one string. Extended E9th has a middle D. The U-12 omits the D, and adds a low B instead. I use the D a lot, and my music doesn't seem to require a low B.

Fewer pedals is easier. I don't need a low B. That's why I play Extended E9th.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

I appreciate all the great feedback i've received so far.

There was never a question. I am going to a U-12. The question is how am I going about it. Looks like from the comments I received the best way would be to just find a U-12 set up and ready to go. I know Carter, Zum and the like have them new for about 800.00 or so more than a used one. I may just go for a brand new guitar. Especially since I've never owned a new Steel.

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