Universal-12

Bradshaw Pack · From: British Columbia, Canada

Hello: I have just ordered a William's SD-12 Universal and it arrives in March. Right now I am playing a Carter SD-10. I am really looking forward to learning all about the E9/B6 tuning of the universal. The standard Universal copedent of the Williams has the F and Eb knee levers on the right side of the guitar as opposed to the standard Emmons set-up of having them on the left. As Ia m new to the universal 12 set-up, how difficult is this to get used to? What is gained and what is lost by having the F and Eb knee levers moved back to the left side? Thank you.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Having the E lower on the right side is nearly mandatory, either pushing left per Franklin/Shobud or pushing right per MSA. I prefer it pushing right.. but my honest belief is that this decision is mostly influenced by the position of your right leg if you double pedal on the B6 pedals... which I do not. .. so that decision depends on the rest of your copedant. I find pushing right keeps my foot aligned better over the vol pedal.

(I don't get it but some keep both E raises and lowers on the left per standard E9 Emmons, but for me it is very unnatural for B9 changes IMO).

Having played guitars with the E raise on the right and left I can very nearly guarantee you would prefer it on LKL with standard Emmons pedals... which is where most E raises on both E9s and Unis reside.

If you are ordering from the factory I can't see why they would not do this change for you.

As for learning new positions of levers, it may seem daunting when trying to manage the other 30 things that go along with learning and playing steel, but its nothing thst a day or two extra practise doesn't solve.

Good luck with the Uni..

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

What Tom says, except I would go as far as to say that RKR is the only place for the E lowers that gives you full mobility of both feet.
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Dave O'Brien · From: Florida and New Jersey

Bradshaw, I have been playing a U-12 for 25 years and am very happy with the standard Sierra setup (both E's on the left). I also play Emmons D-10's so going back and forth is no problem. If you are going to play only one guitar forever there's no issue but for me it's E's on the left!!!Good luck and happy pickin', Dave
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Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

I had my SD12 both ways and prefer both E's on the left. I think it really depends on your style of playing.

As with many things PSG related, there really is no standard.

Robert

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

December 2, 2016 I did it too. I put my MSA S10 in its case and under the bed and started on a GFI S12 U. I use Jeff Newman"s U12 Tuning. I am still finding E9 possibilities and have not really got serious on the B6 Part.
I had to change this guitar from Emmons/Nashville to Day on the pedals since that is what I used for 15 years. My 4-8-11 raise is now on my RKL and 4-8 lower is RKR. It was not too long till I got the moves put in my Nero-Memory and never think about them now "Just Do Them".

With the JN U12 tuning you have 4-8-11 E's Raising to F with your F knee lever. And your 10G# raising to A on B pedal. So 8-9-6 in a new, And you have 8-9-10 an octave lower than 5-6-8, and 9-10-11 as another grip but to my ears you have to be down about the 10th fret or it is toooo Bassie and easy to have strings want to rattle on the bar.

I have my 5th B lower to A#/Bb on my LKL set up to be a vertical lever. Need a longer lever and set it further to the right to set it up like Jeff Newman did.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin.

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Of course you can have any guitar set up any way you want, but there are a couple of very standard ones with the modern E9/B6 Universal 12. You probably should stay with one or the other if you are new to pedal steel or new to the Universal tuning. You might find later on that you want to make some changes.

One is the Jeff Newman set-up with 7 pedals and 4 knees, sometimes 5. This set up has the E's on the right knee with the E lowers moving to the right. This is to give you more room and access to the pedals you are likely to be using with the B6 side of the tuning and allows you to go in and out of the tunings using whatever changes fit the music.

The other is the Sierra set-up which puts the E's on the left knee and a basic Emmons set-up. The reasoning here is to separate the tunings like you would with a double 10 guitar. They included a lok mechanism for the E lowers and a two way left knee lever that could be swiveled out of the way for playing the center pedals and knees. Some people don't like a lock, but if it's there, you can use it...or not.

The folks at Williams are familiar with these setups and you might want to discuss any concerns with them before they get too far along with the construction of your guitar.

I have played Universal 12's and 14's off and on since 1990, both of the setups at one time or another. I think either one is workable, and I don't think it's a good idea to mix them or stray too far from one or the other at least in the beginning. These are tried and true methods. You want a guitar setup that has the basic changes and is easy to play without having to think too much about it.

JMO, FWIW.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

No Les, I meant RKR as in the Newman setup that Jerry describes. If I had to hold RKL to play B6 I wouldn't be able to rock off 5 on to 7 (I have no 6) as my knees would collide! RKL is my strings 2 & 9 lever, only used in E9 mode when my left leg is to the left.
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I use the E lower on RKL and E raise on LKL and that is just the way my first guitar was set up.
I don't think it would be that hard to transition E lower to the right side you just have to do it and stick with it.
My U-12 is set up basically Newman style.

It is a commonly held belief to play C6th or B6th you will want to be able to have your foot over both pedals 5 and 6 comfortably at the same time.
This takes some time to comfortably move your left foot from A-B to B-C to 5-6.
The Jeff Newman E9th/B6th Universal Course deals with the B6th side only and is very good plus a very good value.

The E9th/B6th Universal Course
Uses C6th pedals 5, 6 & 7 on the 12 string E9th/B6th Tuning. Swing rhythm tracks with fills and melodies. $28.00

http://www.jeffran.com/courses.php?content=AudioCourses

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Forgot to say my LKR folds up out of the way and can be put up or down.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Sorry Mike, but I have to respectfully disagree. I believe there are and should be standards with the Universal same as there are standard Emmons, Day, and standard lever arrangements like those you would find with the builders "standard" setups and in the written instruction materials that newcomers are reading.

Especially for new players...Best to go with what has worked for the majority of players in the past. Otherwise, it can be a crap shoot. It takes years of experience to be a good player, but it should not take years getting started. Going with the tried and true takes a lot of frustration and guesswork out of the equation and makes the instructional material easier to use.

Later on, a player might decide they want to move or add something, I sometimes do that myself but I would not recommend doing that for a player new to the steel guitar and/or to the Universal tuning.

I maintain there are those 2 accepted standards I mentioned earlier with the modern Universal tunings.

Others to be considered like Maurice's Bb6th are certainly viable, but players of that arrangement are generally very musically knowledgeable and able to educate themselves.

Bradshaw Pack · From: British Columbia, Canada

A huge thank you to all you who replied to my query about the Universal-12 that I have just ordered from Williams. I am new to this forum and I am quite frankly blown away by the help that I have already received. I've read all of your suggestions carefully. Thank you so much

Bradshaw
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Jerry, Whose setup do we deem standard? I have both raises and lowers on my left knee. Our fellow forumite John McClung has them both on his right. If I am interpreting Ian correctly, he has one on each knee.

Who is right? Should I change my setup to match Ian's? Should he change his to match mine?

And what should the 4th knee lever do? Lower the 5th string to Bb? The 6th to F#? Raise the 2 F# strings to G? Raise the 1st string to G# and the 2nd to E? These Are all good options, and different players will want different ones.

I agree with you that newbie's should learn on whatever is on their guitars when they get them, but there comes a point where people will want to experiment with new changes, and different setups.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The same way as we play "A Way to Survive."
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Jerry, while you indicate relative standards, as I understand it, Maurice Anderson did as much and probably more to promote E9B6 via MSA than anyone else, and MSA has traditionally put both Es on the right. .. (with Emmons arrangement of the E9B6 pedals).. and Williams appears to have adopted the MSA knee lever approach in their stock standard coped.... so if there was a standard to be argued, wouldnt it be the MSA standard?

That said, any presumed standard is flawed unless it has E raises and lowers the way I do them. ... Wink

.

In that respect I agree with Mike Perlowin.. the Es together or split has been debated on and off for decades including a good round on the forum between Emmons and Franklin themselves... haha. All it means is you give something to get something and I suppose that comes down to preference.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I stated modern E9/B6 Universal tunings. Those that are accepted and built within the last 20-30 yrs by mfgs. who used one or the other of these as their "standard" model. Just about any mfg. that builds Universals would recognize either of these methods.

Newman E9/B6

Sierra E9/B6

These are what I consider widely accepted standard tunings and what I recommend to new players when asked about the Universal tunings. I believe these are the best examples of E9/B6 Uni setups that you will find used the most in the Universal world.

I mentioned Maurice's tuning in a post above but I really doubt it's used to the extent of either of these other two.

So, that's what I think.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

You are right about MSA of course. I sort of forgot that MSA had started up again. Then of course Kline had a big Universal market as well, but they haven't built guitars for some time, have they?

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

When I bought the GFI U12 2nd Hand, A copy of Jeff Newman's Copendent and Jeff Newman's "The E9th/B6th Universal Course" DVD was with it. Then I got on the internet and searched a lot of sites for other U12 copendent's. I have Jeff Newman's, Sierra Guitar, Carl Dixon's Excel Universal, BMI, Ernest Bivine,s on a ZUM, Franklin and GFI. The longer I set and looked at them the more confusing it became. I settled on Jeff Newman's set up. They have different notes on some strings and knee levers arranged in different setups.

Just pick one go from there.

A little voice in my head keeps telling me, "When you left Blue Grass why did you not go to PIANO, You could have just taken your music and books in a brief case. or HARMONICA and make yourself a vest with pockets to hold your harmonics or just a Cigar Box."

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I just think that the word 'can't' should not be in a steel players mind, at anytime. Cause I know that you can do it!! I have played the Day set on the pedals & switched to Emmons set-up & back a couple of times, its really just a matter of giving youself a little time to get used to it, it just happens, I promise. I have had so many steel guitars over the years, I have grown used to the challenges that go along with playing our wonderful instrument. I think sometimes that is the reason I love the steel guitar so much. It certainly has played a major part in my life, & I have really never been a 'professional or road player, just a 'good ol boy' that happens to play the greatest instrument ever invented. Hell, stick with it, steel players can do 'er all!!

Ernie Pollock Whoa!

301-264-4172

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Boy! The original post from Bradshaw was about getting started on the Universal. Surely, you have to agree that there must be some guidelines, methods and setups for a new player besides "well, just set it up any way you want". Same as you would for new players concerning Emmons, Day setups etc.

True, in a senior moment I did omit MSA. Probably Kline and BMI also were popular unis. I expect any or all of them would have some direction as to what setups work best.

What I was suggesting is to pick a method that has been proven successful for a majority of players rather than just a willy nilly arbitrary combination of things.

Many of us make changes after we have been at it a few years. Don't see anything wrong with that if it works for you. But I still feel that in the beginning learning the pedal steel in any configuration, or any instrument, it's best to stay with methods that are proven to be effective. That's all.

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