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Topic: I Need More Sustain on my Psg? |
Steve Howard
From:
High Ridge, Missouri, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 9:20 am |
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I own a Derby and am pleased with the guitar as a whole, but am concerned because I can't get the sustain that I would assume I should have. Great Steel licks that are played on country music often have long steel slides in them and I can't even get close to keeping the strings going passed the first slide up.
Surely there isn't some sort of technique associated to get better sustain. Any effects being used to help sustain that the big boys are using? |
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Todd Pertll
From:
Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 9:34 am
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| Turn your amp up and back off the volume pedal. When you need to extend the note, rock the pedal forward. |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 9:45 am
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Also, try adding some reverb.
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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]
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Steve Howard
From:
High Ridge, Missouri, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 9:46 am
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Well, this may end up needing to be addressed on another topic, but I have a problem with this method:
I recently purchased a Goodrich L120 volume pedal. These pedals are obviously passive. I have used guitar volume pedals that are passive and they all seem to only have a true gain of volume in the last 25% of motion. Volume basically goes from 10% to 100% in a very short motion. I expected that because the steel volume pedals cost considerably more than the guitar volume pedals, that the volume increase would be more consistant throughout the whole motion of the pedal and not the last 25%. Well, I guess a passive steel VP works just like a passive guitar VP. I see no difference in this regard.
Because of the above problem, the volume increase range is so very tight that it makes it hard to use the volume pedal for anything other than pure 0-100% swells in volume. Using this pedal to gain sustain on the note, and then having to back off to where I am trying to keep my volume at would seem to be very difficult.
I am a fairly new steel player, so maybe this is just the "ART" of using a volume pedal effectively, but am concerned with the difficulty of it.
Does everyone else find the same difficulty with their volume pedals that I have just described with mine? If so, I assume you just get used to it with time? Or could there possibly be a problem with my Goodrich L120? |
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Chris Forbes
From:
Beltsville, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 10:08 am
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| I have the same volume pedal, I don't have that problem. I would suggest practice, practice, practice with it, it is a very difficult and delicate balance that you need to work it correctly. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 10:19 am
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Todd, Jeff and Chris all have good and worthy suggestions for you, Steve, to which I will add this much:
While various volume pedals have slightly different tapers (the rate at which volume changes as you rock the pedal) the rocking forward of the pedal as the energy of the strings decreases is a major part of a successful PSG technique regardless of which pedal you happen to use.
Due to mechanical realities, many (if not most) "passive" pedals don't utilize the full travel of the pot and thus either don't deliver full volume when rocked fully forward or don't completely shut off when rocked back all the way. You can try different ones until you find what works best for you, but in the mean time this should not stop you from improving your chops - work with what you've got until you can get something else, most of us never had any other option when we were starting out.
I have used lots of different volume pedals, from ShoBud, Ernie Ball, DeMargio and Bigsby to my current Goodrich photo-resistive unit (I still keep a new Ernie Ball in the case for a back-up). They are all a bit different, even sound a bit different, but keep working at it, Steve, it takes plenty of work to get the hands and feet coordinated but you will find that your results improve with practice.
One other thing (maybe the most significant thing) that you can do to improve the sustain of your rig is to add a quality compressor to the signal chain, I have mine inserted right after the preamp and before my effects. If you set it so that it delivers some gain reduction when the strings are plucked at full volume it then allows you to turn up the amp and thus have more gain available at lower instrument/pedal volume levels.
Remember that those licks you are hearing are played by guys with LOTS of years of playing on you and virtually ALL of those PSG rigs and recorded mixes utilize some compression to get that sound, don't feel bad if it takes you a while to get it on your own.
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 Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.
1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion
[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 07 January 2005 at 10:20 AM.] |
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 10:19 am
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Steve, I am a former semi-pro country lead guitarist who got serious about the PSG a few years ago...
I have noticed your posts over the last few months and know exactly what you are going through. Diving into the PSG is a humbling experience even for an expert, accomplished six stringer...
I have the same pedal and I had the same problem at first...
It is truly all about finessing the volume pedal and learning to connect it to what your right hand is doing. Keep your amp volume up and and really practice hard at finessing that pedal. You'll find that you will eventually build your sustain. Its all about learning a new skill that you never had to deal with as a six stringer... You'll get it, it just takes loads of practice.
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www.bigsmokey.com
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Todd Pertll
From:
Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 10:35 am
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Steve,
Chris hit it on the head. It's all about practice and getting comfortable with your gear.
You don't need any boxes, effects, compression pedals, etc. just work on it. It will come around. |
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Steve Howard
From:
High Ridge, Missouri, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 10:50 am
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Hey guys,
Thanks for the info. This is exactly what I needed to know. I just needed to know that I am equiped with the right stuff, I just need to practice to get better. I have no problems with that answer.
I do use compression for my steel. As a triple duty guy, I use my "good" stomp boxes for my guitar and use an analog (Route 66) compression pedal and it sounds great. On my PSG, I am using a Digitech RP100 multi effects processor (built for guitar) as I don't have the money for anything else right now and not exactly sure what to get as I'm not familiar enough with what I want out of the steel yet. But there is a compression I am using on the digitech.
I assume on the compression I would want the gain fairly high, but what about the level? Should I really "squash" the sound, or just give it some slight compression on the steel? |
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Ad Kersten
From:
Beek en Donk, The Netherlands
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 12:34 pm
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Steve,
I don't know where the volume pedal in in your chain set-up but if I remember correctly, it makes a difference in effect/travel whether you put it in front of the pre-amp or use it in a loop. In front is better but use a Matchbox or other device to avoid tone changes (more travel = less highs) because of impedance of the cables.
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Zumsteel S12U
Yo, Man! homepage
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 1:47 pm
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| Most of the recordings you hear are pretty processed. There is compression in them and it is tough to reproduce when practicing at home. Get on a new set of strings,make sure you have a GOOD bar at least 7/8 in. ,add a good compressor in the signal chain turn the amp up,learn to use your volume pedal properly and you'll get the sustain you need. I also find that I get great clean sustain when using 2 amps although I don't do it on stage these days[too much weight to carry] bob |
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Bill Myrick
From:
Pea Ridge, Ar. (deceased)
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 2:00 pm
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Steve : go to this site and check out the volume pedal ---it's helped lots of people including me !! www.hiltonelectronics.net
Good Luck . |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 2:07 pm
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| I have used guitar volume pedals that are passive and they all seem to only have a true gain of volume in the last 25% of motion. |
Well Steve, here's my2cents.  (Keeping in mind that straight guitars and pedal steels have very little in common.)
Fact #1. Your pedal may have the wrong pot. If the pot is a linear taper, the volume will come on fast and furious, and most of the pedal travel will do nothing. If you buy a used (steel) volume pedal, be advised that many people have been known to replace the (proper) audio taper pot with a linear taper because it's cheaper and easier to get. Bad move. It renders the pedal almost useless.
Fact #2. Most volume pedals made for straight guitar are junk, pure and simple. Look at the price tag. Was it less than $150? Well, you got what you paid for. Truth is, most of these pedals are designed specifically for rock-n-roll guitar players, and they want only 2 things...LOUD and LOUDER.  If your pedal is combined in an expensive EFX unit, you can be sure they spent all of $10 on the volume pedal part.
Fact #3. Using a compressor when you already have a volume pedal is kind of counterproductive; for three reasons. Firstly, it's robbing you of dynamics. (That's the quality of creating both loud and soft sounds - the essential, expressive part of most good music.) Secondly, it actually keeps you from learning the proper use of the volume pedal. Yeah, I know some players would rather just buy a "gizmo" than have to learn a "technique", but the shortest route isn't always the best route. (They'll find that out sooner or later! ) Thirdly, YOU DON'T NEED IT! Truth is...most pedal steelers do not use one.
Fact #4. When you use a compressor with a volume pedal, unless you use it between the pickup and the volume pedal, you're asking for problems. This is caused by the action of the compressor. When you back off the pedal, a compressor boosts the volume to compensate. And when you push down on the volume pedal (to get more volume), the compressor just "backs off". Sound kinda like a tug-of-war? Yes, that's exactly what it is, and as a result, the volume pedal never seems to work quite right. But don't blame the pedal, it doesn't "know" what you're doing, or why you're doing it.
Steve, to get proper sustain from your pedal steel requires three things.
a. A decent volume pedal.
b. Proper technique (left-hand vibrato and a good right hand picking style).
c. A good amp setting. If you don't have the amp volume up substantially (not at "3", but more like "6-10"), then you're keeping your amp from doing what it was designed to do.
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 4:34 pm
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Relating to this, has anyone ever compared the various makes to see which psg has the most sustain?
And which guitars do you think sustain the most? |
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Winnie Winston
From:
Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 5:26 pm
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One problem, as mentioned, is that most pedals don't use the whole range of the pot. What I have done on mine (a goodrich pedal) is to loosen the sleeve that holds the cord wrap to the pot stem, and then turn the pot stem up. Then tighten again.
So NOW I have the pedal, when full down, having the pot at 100%. When the pedal is "off" there is some volume coming through, but not enough to get in the way of using the pedal fully.
JW |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 6:55 pm
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| Quote: |
| When you use a compressor with a volume pedal, unless you use it between the pickup and the volume pedal, you're asking for problems |
| Quote: |
| When you back off the pedal, a compressor boosts the volume to compensate. And when you push down on the volume pedal (to get more volume), the compressor just "backs off" |
You make some very good points here, Donny, but I must respectfully disagree with your discourse regarding compression.
I don't know about guitar effects stomp box style toys, I never touch the stuff myself, but virtually all professional grade compressors have entirely the wrong impedance and gain structure to insert before the volume pedal or the preamp and will usually just add noise and sound real bad when connected directly to the instrument.
When adjusted so as to just limit the loudest sound that you can produce AFTER the pedal/preamp/EQ and before the delay/reverb/power amp one can then turn up the power a bit more, allowing greater volume at lower pedal settings without fear of overdriving at louder ones, thus controlling momentary peaks and increasing sustain at the same time.
While a heavy-duty stomp-box comp setting that might sound dynamite for a rockin' lead guitar WILL definitely tend to generate the effects that you mention, if the unit is a professional one and the threshold, ratio, attack and release are set properly you will never get any sort of "tug-of-war" effects at all, as you put it.
There is certainly no substitute for learning proper technique and taking the time for constant practice but there is a reason that you will find some compression on virtually every professionally recorded track - a wide dynamic response is a great thing in theory but with all the rest of the noise going on in the mix there really isn't that much practical dynamic space available unless you are playing solo.
Ah well, time for this boy to go practice some more....[Edited for clarity] [This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 08 January 2005 at 10:12 AM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 7:33 pm
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Some wonderful advise, despite the variety of opinion, expressed so far.
Let me just add that, given YOUR guitar, YOUR volume pedal, and a good clean amp, a good steel player will get more sustain that you would know what to do with. Looking to any device other than your guitar, amp, and HANDS is not the proper quest for a beginner, IMHO. I recommend practicing with NO REVERB, NO DELAY, NO NOTHIN'. If you can make that sound great, imagine what you can do by fattening it up a bit with some verb or a touch of delay.
A LOT of it is in your LEFT HAND.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 January 2005 at 07:36 PM.] |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 7 Jan 2005 7:37 pm
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| What you said Larry, all of it! dg |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 9:44 am
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Steve what happens on your slides and sustain when you do NOT use a volume pedal and compressor? Plug right into your amp.
Let us know.
Larry Behm
Dave G come and see me at Jubiz sometime, Mic runs sound, you can sit and shoot the bull with him.
[This message was edited by Larry Behm on 08 January 2005 at 09:45 AM.] |
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Steve Howard
From:
High Ridge, Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 10:38 am
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As stated above, as long as I know I have the right equipment, I have no problems with working to improve my technique. But you have to make sure you have the proper tools before starting a job.
Thanks for all the advice. I know what I need to do now.
Would be interested to know what kind of compression units the pros are using. I have to respectfully disagree with anyone who says compression is not needed and creates a "tug of war". As stated above, everyone of these guys recording uses some form of compression.
Too many effects and gizmos ultimitly leads to more time spent away from truly practicing with the gizmos that count the most (your hands), but they don't make those things for nothing. The right gizmos used for the right instruments can make the world of difference. Who would have known that an $80 Route 66 compression/overdrive pedal would have taken my 6-string sound from sterile to Brent Mason like. I have always found that when satisfied with your tone and sound, it encourages you to play more.
Lastly, as stated, my volume pedal is a Goodrich L120. This happens to be a pedal that it seems many on this forum use. I don't consider it "junk" nor would the rest. However, I did buy it used and it is always possible that the wrong pot was used to replace the original. Good tip and I will check it out at some point.
Oh, and the sustain directly on the guitar with no use of the volume pedal is ok I suppose (new strings). Seems to last as long as I would need it until I start sliding the bar and then it deadens very quickly. But as my technique improves, hopefully it will get better. |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 11:02 am
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Steve-
Some Goodrich pedals have a slope selection. Did you try both slopes? One is supposed to behave as you described, the other "comes on" later in the sweep.
-d- |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 11:23 am
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Larry, I thank you for echoing my feelings. But apparently, all do not agree. That's okay. I'm certainly not a genius in any field, and I make no claim as to being a great player. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to relate what I've learned, heard, and seen in my 40+ years as a steelplayer to try and help my fellow amateur players.
But on the other hand...maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 11:50 am
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Donny,
Don't you dare keep your big mouth shut!! I have learned a great deal from you in the four years that I have been on this forum.
I for one very much value your input.
R B |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 11:53 am
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Steve said
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| everyone of these guys recording uses some form of compression |
It might be true that there is compression on every steel track on top 40 country radio, but if there is, it is going to be an LA2a or other high end rack studio compressor. And it would be applied after the mic preamp stage, in order to normalize the steel level in the track, or to color the tone. This type of compression would have no significant effect on the sustain of the instrument.
I could be wrong, but I doubt whether many or any of the session steels players these days use a stomp box compressor as part of their normal signal chain. I'd concentrate on maximizing sustain with the guitar going straight into the amp (or without an amp). It's amazing what the left hand can do.
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www.tyack.com
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 8 Jan 2005 11:54 am
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| Donny, you can give me advice anytime. |
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