Changing Strings causes pull changes- WHY????

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

HI Everyone,
Here's what happened.
I decided to change from Cobra Coil to Jagwires- with a .0115 third string instread of an .011.

I removed all the old strings from my Lamar ( all pull) and put on the Jagwires.
Then all heck broke loose with my pedals.

After the string change, when I step on the B pedal, string #3 goes up a half step, like it's supposed to.
String #6, on the other hand, goes up about5 half steps.

When I step on C pedal, String number 4 should raise 2 half steps- it goes up about 4 half steps.

I checked the string gauges- the Jagwires and Cobra coils are real close. String #1 is slightly different ( .014 to .013) but otherwise the string gauges are identical- AS IS the fact that string #6 is a .20 NON WOUND string on both sets.

In addition: String #6 is dropped 2 half steps by a knee lever, which seems to function properly, and of course string #4 is raised and lowered one my knee levers- which also seemed to function properly after the string change.

Any ideas?

David Doggett · Posted 22 Dec 2004 3:16 pm

David, what kind of guitar do you have. It sounds like something got out of place in the undercarriage when you changed strings. With some guitars, a pull rod can slip out of the original bell crank slot and into another slot that will pull the string a different amount. It is usually better to change the strings one at a time, unless you need them all off for cleaning or refurbishing.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

If nothing is out of whack under there strings will do that sometimes. I use Franklin strings. I tried out another very reputable brand with the same exact everything and my guitar went bonkers. I couldn't get it adjusted and I had to get to a gig so I put some Franklin's back on there and it was back to normal. I haven't messed with it since. ------------------

Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 22 December 2004 at 03:46 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Sounds like you went from a wound 6th to a plain 6th, or, the pull rod is not seated correctly in the bell crank (due to the lack of tension when all the strings were off). This is a reason to concider changing strings one at a time, and bringing each string up to pitch and make sure it is functioning correctly before going on to the next one.
Just a thought.
~pb

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

Bob and Pete bring up good points. Although it sounds unlikely, a different brand of strings, even in the same gauges, has caused me problems in the past. It will especially cause problems if some of the strings are gauged differently; and it doesn't take much.

I also follow Pete's procedure of chaning strings one at a time; unless I'm in a "total cleaning" mood and want to polish the brass roller nuts on my Mullen...

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Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

5 fret difference?

Something got stuck in the finger/changer mech, or a return spring came off.

EJL

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

Thanks everyone.
I agree that it's best to change one at a time- but with the keyless head, it is a lot easier to pull off the stings, and I wanted to clean the neck.
I've checked to rods- there's no way to get the rod off the bell crank without loosening the hex nut quite a bit.

I had a chance to speak with Dana Flood- he siad exactly what Eric said.
I'm going to remove the rod and start from scratch on the pull.
I'll post the results

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 24 December 2004 at 04:31 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Something isn't sitting right. I don't know much about the Lamar, but whenever I've encountered something like that it's always because something got changed other than just the string.

Take off the rod that pulls your sixth string and check to see if anything is jammed in the changer.

Is it possible for the rod to move to a different slot in the bell crank by accident? That has happened on my Sierra before, with a result similar to what you describe.

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

First of all-I examined the changer closely, and how the string end was seated- there might have been something jammed in there. I made sure the string was properly seated. Still, the pull was "hyper". So I I took off the rod, re-installed it and tuned the stop. Now it's fine again- with the new strings.

Here's where the strings are held

Here's the changer- if something was wedged in there wouldn't you be able to tell because it would limit the motion of the finger?

IN the photo below you can see that the slots in the bell cranks are pretty deep- it's impossible to remove a rod without loosening the hex nut.

I don't know what the heck happened, but now it's working so, on to practicing!

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 24 December 2004 at 10:22 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

When the strings are off, the changer fingers flop around and there's a lot more slack in the rods. As you add strings and hit pedals to tune them, the rods that are still slack can fall down to a lower slot.

The lower slot pulls the string further, creating exactly the effect that you described.

Bill OConnor · From: Castle Rock, Washington, USA * R.I.P.

I AGREE WITH BOBBY LEE .I HAD THIS HAPPEN TWICE THE SECOND TIME I KNEW RIGHT AWAY THE EXTRA SLACK WITH THE STRING OFF. CAUSED THE PULL ROD TO DROP DOWN CAUSING A DIFFERENT STROKE I NOW MARK EACH LOCATION AND YOU KNOW WHERE TO RELOCATE WITHOUT THE HASSEL

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Bill C. Buntin · Posted 31 Dec 2004 4:59 am

I used Franklins for a long time. They have very different characteristics as compared to GHS, D'Addario etc etc. I don't know the technical answer. Paul Sr. told me what the difference was but I've forgotten. On 2 different guitars I've owned the Franklins worked the best. But I had this problem of having to readjust everything when switching back to GHS.

[This message was edited by Bill C. Buntin on 31 December 2004 at 05:00 AM.]

Willis Vanderberg · From: Petoskey Mi

It would appear in the picture of your bell cranks, there is nothing to keep the rod from falling out of the slot.
The cranks look very similar to the ones used on my MCI. You can go to a small engine shop and get some small "O" rings to slip over the cranks and hold the rod in the slot. It will also quiet down some noise in the undercarriage.I will mention that fellow forumite Jim Palenscar has a replacement bell crank that eliminates this problem.

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

Hi David,
I had the same thing happpen to me when I switched FROM Jagwire TO Cobra Coils. I wondered if it was some kind of a tension thing with the different brand of strings or something because after I retuned my pulls, everything was fine. BTW, I switched the C6 neck back to Jagwires after just to see what would happen and the same thing occured. Dont know what happens really, but I think I remember Ricky Davis saying something about different string tensions afecting pulls and such...maybe we should ask him for some of his expert advice.

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Sho-Bud ProII, Pro III custom,
Fender Steelking,Hilton pedal,Tut Taylor "Virginian"

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

There may have been a broken off ball-end of a string or other object jammed somewhere in the linkage from one or more string changes ago. Maybe when you took all the strings off, the blockage finally fell out, and created a much longer pull.
Are you sure that you didn't unkowingly go from a wound to a plain 6th string?
Glad to hear you got it fixed though!
~pb

David Friedlander · From: New York, New York, USA

Hi Everyone!

First I'd like to wish all my forum co-members a very happy and a healthy new years!

The guitar is back to snuff- to answer some of the suggestions
1) did the rod fall off?
The simply way to check this is to remove the string, then play with the rod to see if you can get it to slip out of it's slot.
I did this and could not get the rod to come out of the crank.
Having adjusted the pulls on this guitar many times, I already knew that, but I checked it anyway. To adjust the pull ( to change which slot the rod slips into on the bellcrank) requires a loosening of the hex nut.

I also own a Williams guitar- his rod ends have a locking device- as was suggested here

This leaves either differnces in string tension, or more likely- debris falling in between the change and the finger.

It would be great if an expert could definatively answer the question:

Do 2 different brands of strings have different tension properties even if they ar identical gauges?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

quote:
The simply way to check this is to remove the string, then play with the rod to see if you can get it to slip out of it's slot.
I did this and could not get the rod to come out of the crank.

Just to clarify, did you engage various pedals and knee levers when you were playing with it? That's what has caused the problem when I've encountered it in the past.

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes what Larry is refering to; is the difference in manufactured strings. Lets say you have a .017 plain on your 5th string from Brand X; and you get the "B" note in tune open and then get the C# "a" pedal down adjusted perfectly. Now take that Brand X off; and put a Jagwire .017 plain on there and tune the open "B" note perfectly and then push the "a" pedal down and see what happens. Here's what will happen> Your C# note is now going to be Sharp; than the way you had it adjusted with Brand X; wanna know whY?? Well....it's because it takes less tension to pull a Jagwire .017 plain wire than any other brand X; and do you know what that means?? Well....that means you now have a quality wire that takes less tension to pull than any other same gauge wire and that negates to longevity in tone and stability> BAM!!! Jagwire gets my vote and that goes for all the Jagwire wires..ha...
Ricky

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

A string that allows easier/shorter pedal travel is more susceptible to cabinet drop and other mechanical imperfections in pitch.

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