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Topic: Fender 400 Pedal Steel Guitar |
Kevin Ruddell
From:
Toledo Ohio USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 6:58 pm |
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Hello PSG ists' . Can any forum members post what they feel are the going prices for a clean Fender 23 inch scale 400 model ?
I'm not too familiar with the availability and prices for that guitar. I play C6 on a non pedal and am thinking about branching out to a basic PSG for the option of chord work more than for chromatic or moving passages.
thanks for any posts
Kevin |
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Sidney Ralph Penton
From:
Moberly, Missouri, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 6:00 am
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it depends on how old it is and what kind of shape it is in. I have a 2002 bmi s10 3+3 in very good shape i would let go for $1500. the reason i want to sell is to get a new carter 3+5. thanks doc. srpenton@missvalley.com
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 10:50 am
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| Depending on the condition and the market, the average one now goes for about $400-$800, with "mint" examples bringing about a grand. The market has inflated, somewhat, due to collectors. Were in not for the fact that most are buying for investment, as well as for playing, they wouldn't be worth more than $400. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 10:54 am
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I think that the 4 pedal Fenders (that's the 400, right?) are still going for about $600. There's not a big demand, as most steel players know that they break strings a lot and don't hold the modern tunings (8 strings, no knee levers).
They have a cool sound, but it's sort of one dimensional ("bright"). Well made, yes. Well designed? Not by today's standards. You couldn't sell a new guitar designed like that in today's market.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
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Larry King
From:
Watts, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 12:05 pm
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I had a Fender 400 that I would describe as mint and sold it maybe three years ago to a VERY high profile player who has since used it on some album cuts of a (once again) VERY high profile Texas singer. He is of course free to chime in here but until then I'll protect his privacy. I'll say this, he absolutely captured that "Moon" sound and other than recognizing the tone, he completely commanded the guitar and sounded as adept on it as he did recording with a more modern guitar...as they say, it's in the hands. |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 1:58 pm
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I've had one for a number of years. I added
some knee levers, tuned it down to a B9th
and recorded with it last year.
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My Steel MP3's
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 4:27 pm
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| I think Donny is about right on price. Most people that have them want to restore them . I get calls all the time, mainly for missing or broken cables or the "Bridge"cover. I have converted several over the years,but,now I would recommend trying to restore them. I have some in my collection, and occassionally loan them out for a recording session when they want that sound.Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 5:59 pm
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| Quote: |
| You couldn't sell a new guitar designed like that in today's market. |
Bobby, I'd say you're wrong, and I'll tell you why...
A couple days ago, Wifey insisted I put up the Christmas tree we cut this past weekend. I dug out the lights for the tree and tried each string last night before I put them on. Sure enough, I had five bad strings of lights. I sat on the floor cleaning the contacts, checking the fuses, and swapping the bulbs to little avail. After 3 hours work, I got only one of them working! So, I tripped on down to the local Wallymart, and bought six NEW strings of 50 lights (made in China-guaranteed safe, but slightly hazardous)...all for less than $10!
Therefore, I believe that if a new steel made like the old 400 could be made to sell for about $250 or less, they'd easily outsell Carter Starters! (People are always looking for a "deal".)
Now, you might say that that will never happen, but I just looked in the Musician's Pal catalog, and saw the following deal...
quote:
Acoustic guitar and mandolin pack.
Spruce top dreadnought-sized acoustic guitar with rosewood fingerboard and die-cast tuners and a Black or sunburst body mandolin with adjustable bridge. (Both made by Roque.)
On sale for...
$79.99!
(Never though I'd see that one, either!)
I'm not saying these are good instruments, but for someone who's just in the market to try to see if they want to play guitar or mandolin, I'm sure that they are a "playable" starting point. (Okay for a beginner.)
And that's who would buy a new $250 Fender 400 copy. (Lotta RR "wannabees" out there now, 'ya know!  )[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 11 December 2004 at 06:15 PM.] |
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Kevin Ruddell
From:
Toledo Ohio USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 2:58 am
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| Thanks for all your responses and information everone . Bobby Lee , I agree with you on the bright Fender sound. When I play my Dual Pro 8 Fender steel I turn the treble down to 1 on my tube amp and cut 10 db's of 1 Khz on my Urei eq, and it sounds right. If I don't it sounds pretty piercing |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 8:53 am
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| Quote: |
| Therefore, I believe that if a new steel made like the old 400 could be made to sell for about $250 or less, they'd easily outsell Carter Starters! |
Seeing that Carter starters are selling new in the $600 range, if I'm not mistaken and that the Fender 800 probably could be built for about as much as the 400 could be built -- even with no knee levers, I'd buy a brand new, originally-designed, Fender 800 all day long for $600. I'd say there is a bit of a "nostalgia-factor" involved for most people. Sort of like wanting a '52 Tele reissue rather than a new PRS or something like that.
Same thing for lots of other stuff, like old cars. People will pay more for a (nice condition) 40-year-old, "old-school" rust-attracting, smog-producing, 15-mile-per-gallon, fullblown-tune-up-required-every-10,000-miles, death-trap, Chevy SS, or Dodge Charger, or what-have-you, than they would for a brand new 35-mile-per-gallon luxury car. Not because the older car is a better car (don't make me laugh), but because of the old car's coolness factor, or nostalgia, or memories, or whatever. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 11:09 am
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You couldn't make a Fender 400 clone to sell for $250, even in India. They were extremely well manufactured (which is why they survive).
If you wanted to make a mass market pedal for $250, you would design something more like the Carter Starter and take the manufacturing offshore. It would be more playable than the Fender 400, with 10 strings, 3p+4k and a full range pickup.
Problem is, you need a mass market to sell mass market products. There is no large market for pedal steels (yet ). |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 9:33 pm
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| Quote: |
| They were extremely well manufactured (which is why they survive) |
b0b, I've been wondering for years why no other steel manufacturer (except Carvin) has used the "wrap-around" type cast aluminum frame of the Fender Steels. From a durability standpoint, and a manufacturing standpoint (although I've never designed or built a steel guitar), it seems like that Fender frame design is hard to beat (not to mention -- dare I say -- cabinet drop?)
Maybe it's too heavy(?) [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 13 December 2004 at 09:34 PM.] |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 9:35 pm
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I have bought three very decent Fender 400's in the past two years and all were under $400.
I listed one on ebay last month with a "Buy it Now" of $600 and it was sold in less than two hours.
So I'm guessing that $600 is a good price right now for them. Although I did pass up one this summer for $300, but it needed some help. |
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Justin B. French
From:
Virginia Beach, VA, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 10:53 pm
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I have a Fender 400. Its put away and I hardly ever use it. I had a 500 that I got rid of in the 80's, I wish I hadn't, it had that pretty sunburst design. Once I got my hands on this one I decided to keep it forever. Check out the photo, its in good shape. Jud French  http://www.evertize.com/sutphin/vintage.htm
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Carter D10, Fender 400
Nashville 1000, Goodrich LDR
DigiTech RP-100
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Earl Hensley
From:
Las Vegas Nv.USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2004 6:42 pm
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I HAVE A BEAUTIFUL FENDER 400, SET UP WITH C-6, AND USES THE 4 PEDALS LIKE A PEDAL C-6.
I DO HAVE PHOTOS IF NEEDED.
HENSLEYEL@COMCAST.NET
EARL |
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Ken Lang
From:
Simi Valley, Ca
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Posted 15 Dec 2004 7:10 pm
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| Jud. That is one beautiful pic of the 400. I had to sell mine in 1963 to make a tax burden. It brings back some good memories tho. |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2004 1:09 am
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My first year 400 with the polished alum body.
S/N 00270
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John Poston
From:
Albuquerque, NM, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2004 9:14 am
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I have a 6-pedal fender 400 with a homemade RKL that someone added down the line. I use a A6 tuning with the typical C6 changes and a couple more and wouldn't trade it for anything. I play it as much as my Emmons and gig with it as well.
I've even thought of getting a second one in case the prices start getting too ridiculous like some of the other old stuff. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Dec 2004 5:17 pm
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Bobby, I STILL think a "400 clone" could certainly be made (offshore, in a place like China), to sell for $250. (That's why I highlighted the $79 guitar/mando ad.) It's not hard to do when the labor-rate is under $1/hr.. Remember, those old 400 models were designed very well, but made rather inexpensively. Most all the normally "complex" machined parts (pedals, changer, tuning head, bellcranks, and pulleys) were made of stamped steel! Once you have the dies, these parts can be banged out in less than one second each. The only real expensive and time-consuming thing to make would be the body. Now, since it had a complete wrap-around frame (which could be cast from all aluminum...beer cans?), you might even use a composite wood or plastic for the body! Also, you have to take into consideration that these guitars, due to the cable design, could be assembled completely in a few minutes, compared to the hour or two it takes for a rod-mechanism steel. Now, paint (powder coat) the metal parts instead of expensive chrome-plating, and add cheap plastic legs and voila!
You've got a $250 knock-off "400". (Case...extra, like most cheap guitars. )
I've heard you can buy a new moped in China for $250, so a cheap little pedal guitar shouldn't be a problem!
[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 December 2004 at 05:18 PM.] |
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Alvin Blaine
From:
Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2004 7:45 pm
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quote:
Bobby, I STILL think a "400 clone" could certainly be made (offshore, in a place like China), to sell for $250. (That's why I highlighted the $79 guitar/mando ad.) It's not hard to do when the labor-rate is under $1/hr.. Remember, those old 400 models were designed very well, but made rather inexpensively. Most all the normally "complex" machined parts (pedals, changer, tuning head, bellcranks, and pulleys) were made of stamped steel! Once you have the dies, these parts can be banged out in less than one second each. The only real expensive and time-consuming thing to make would be the body. Now, since it had a complete wrap-around frame (which could be cast from all aluminum...beer cans?), you might even use a composite wood or plastic for the body! Also, you have to take into consideration that these guitars, due to the cable design, could be assembled completely in a few minutes, compared to the hour or two it takes for a rod-mechanism steel. Now, paint (powder coat) the metal parts instead of expensive chrome-plating, and add cheap plastic legs and voila!
You've got a $250 knock-off "400". (Case...extra, like most cheap guitars. )
I've heard you can buy a new moped in China for $250, so a cheap little pedal guitar shouldn't be a problem!
The one in the picture that I posted above was made in Fullerton California in 1958. I only paid $300 for it two years ago.
If I can still hunt around a find old working ones for $300 to $400. I don't think any country can make a new steel with this quality for less than that price range.
So until the price of the REAL Fender 400's get way up over $1000 I don't see a need to have MIC ones. |
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Ken Lang
From:
Simi Valley, Ca
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Posted 16 Dec 2004 8:31 pm
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(Once you have the dies, these parts can be banged out in less than one second each.)
Cost of bracket banged out: .25 cents per thousand.
Cost of die to bang it out: 7,500 dollars
Cost of OBI (open backed inclined press) to put the die in to stamp the part: 20,000 dollars.
Add: Cost of labor (minimal in china).
Price/sq foot of building to house press.
Electricial power to run press.
Insurance.
Maintenance.
Benifits.
Taxes.
Shipping.
Customs
Assembly.
Advertising.
Shipping completed unit to retail.
Retail markup.
Floor plan.
Follow up and warrenty services.
Oh yes, I missed the cost of designing the acutal part, and the whole psg. Figure $75/hr for someone worth his salt.
All this is not a problem if your going to sell 70,000 units/per year. But maybe 138? No way.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Dec 2004 6:14 am
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Alvin, Ken, obviously you guys are missing the point....you're thinking of building a steel guitar factory, and I'm thinking of making a steel guitar in China (quite a difference.)
| Quote: |
| Oh yes, I missed the cost of designing the acutal part, and the whole psg. Figure $75/hr for someone worth his salt. |
What?!? In China??? Look, $75/hr. is what programmers and designers can make in this country! (Most make much less.)
Uhh, I hate to tell you, but this guitar is already designed, and anyway, in China, the President and CEO of a company is lucky to make that much! You guys are thinking on "American" terms...
Insurance?
Benefits?
Are you kidding, this is about China, where people are thankful to have a job. "What are 'benefits', Lang-San?"
At any rate, I'm done, and I apologize for "hijacking" this thread. The point I was trying to make is they could do it, not that they would.
All you guys "arguing" with me obviously haven't seen the "knockoffs" of famous $2,000 Martin and Gibson guitars that are being sold every day for $49. 
That's okay. |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 17 Dec 2004 9:14 am
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Donny has a good point. All you have to do is look at what's being done right now!. Look at some of the products that are being built overseas and look at the price. For example, look at some of the Epiphone guitars, Gretsch guitars, G&L Tribute guitars, (and many others) and look at the quality vs. price.
Then, consider the fact that these guitars have very involved wood working and assembly and finishing processes, and they're shipped halfway around the world, and they're sold at a price that is:
1) very, very reasonable; and,
2) at a very high profit margin to the brand company.
Now consider the fact that there's really not that much to a Fender-type psg compared to those aforementioned instruments. You have a cast aluminum frame (I'm guessing the frame alone could be produced overseas for probably well under $10/a piece. Four legs, a cheap tuner assembly a few cross-shafts and bearings and bellcranks, a pedal board made of wood with a few cast pedals on it, a pickup and related controls and wiring and a slab wood body that could probably be made on a CNC machine for about $5/a piece, a few cables, and a changer.
You don't have to design anything -- it's already been designed.
Remember, there are people overseas that have gotten very good at manufacturing quality stuff very cheaply. That's why the U.S. doesn't do much of that any more -- we simply can't compete because our costs are made so incredibly high by all the applicable government regulations.
Anyway, you pay a bunch of people $0.50/hour to put it all together, and I believe you really could sell them and make money. I don't know what the price point would really be, but I don't think $300 to $400 is totally unrealistic. I think in reality they'd probably sell for more like $600 simply from the standpoint that I believe that's what people would pay for it. |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2004 9:31 am
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Knee levers can be added to these with a little engineering. Here's pics of some I added to Craig Holden's Fender 800 a while back. I was surprised how well this guitar played.
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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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