Emmons Push Pull question

Bill Lowe · From: Connecticut

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found this old post on the forum. I am wondering if there was any new information since this posting that came to light. Just curious. It seems like every time an Emmons pops up there is a discrepancy as to the age.

During their 20 years of production, from 1964 to 1983, the Emmons push-pull guitars have undergone a number of changes in design. A time-line of these upgrades could provide a data base to determine the year of production of a given guitar and/or when it was modified. For the D-10, there is a list of serial numbers on the Carter website. To my knowledge, no such list exists for the other models: S-10, S-12, SD-10, SD-12, D-12. Below, you'll find some of the various features. I am hoping that you all might help me to fill in the blanks and correct errors. Some of the years stated are guesses based on my own guitars (1970 D-10, #1461, 1977 D-10, #2321, 1969? S-10, #1117) and photos of others.
Cabinet, rear apron:
1) cut back: 1964-1976, 1973-1983
2) full back/fat back: 1968-1973; and most lacquer models

Metal neck:
1) wrap-around: 1964 and 1965
2) bolt-on: 1965-1966; and all wooden neck models
3) cut-tail/split tail: 1967-1983

Cut-Tail end block:
1) no patent number engraved: 1967-1972
2) patent number engraved: 1972-1983

Fretboard:
1) black w/white atoms: Student model (Black Rock), Economy D-10
2) glossy black, thin silver lines, colored atoms (orange, white, red, yellow): 1964-1969
3) glossy black, thin silver lines, colored atoms (orange, blue, red, yellow): 1970
4) matt black, thick silver lines, colored atoms (orange, blue, red, yellow): 1976
5) matt black, white lines, colored atoms (orange, blue, red, yellow): 1980

Knee levers:
1) no levers: 1964
2) silver levers, 6 3/4 "/17 cm: -1970
3) silver levers, 5 1/2"/14 cm:
4) black levers, 5 1/2"/ 14 cm:
5) RKR fold-out extender, first introduced in:
6) vertical knee lever, first introduced in:
7) half-tuner for E-F lever, first introduced in:

Knee lever L-brackets:
1) 1-hole bracket: -1970
2) 3-hole bracket:

Cross straps/braces (from front apron to rear apron):
1) 2 straps: 1964-1970
2) 1 strap: 1971-1983
3) no strap on S-10: ????-1983

Pedal stop rail:
1) wood: 1964-1967
2) metal: 1968-1983

Flocking:
1) red flocking:
2) black flocking:

Pedals:
1) wide 1 3/8"/3.5 cm cast aluminum pedals: 1964-1970
2) narrow 1 3/16"/3.0 cm cast aluminum pedals: 1971-
3) LeGrande style pedals:

Pedal rods:
1) 2-piece rods 3/16"/5.0 mm with attached hook: 1964-1970
2) 1-piece rods 11/64"/4.5 mm: 1971-1983

Pedal rod spacing:
1) wide spacing 2 19/32"/6.6 cm: 1964-1970
2) narrow spacing 2 5/32"/5.65 cm: 1971-1983

Decal/plaque:
1) silver "Stereo" decal: 1964
2) silver decal: -1968
3) metal plaque (brown or black): 1969
4) plastic plaque (black only):

Keyhead tuners:
1) Kluson oval head:
2) Kluson tulip head:
3) others (Sperzel, Schaller, Gotoh):

Endplate tuners:
1) tuning screws with plastic inserts: 1964-1970
2) tuning screws with red lock-tite: 1971-1983

Tone knob:
1) black bakelite: 1964-1970
2) black plastic hat style w/silver insert:
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JCH D10, 71 D10 P/p fat back, Telonics TCA 500C--12-,Fender JBL Twin, Josh Swift signature.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I know of a few 66 D10's that where made with mahogany.
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Bob

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

The wraparound design was used well into 1965.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Bill Lowe · From: Connecticut

Thanks Bob and Herb,
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JCH D10, 71 D10 P/p fat back, Telonics TCA 500C--12-,Fender JBL Twin, Josh Swift signature.

Tommy Detamore · From: Floresville, Texas

Bolt-ons were made in 1967 as well.

In addition there were some early bolt-ons made where the changer was mounted to a wraparound neck without the milled lip. I think the axle had a smaller diameter on those.

I have two mid-'60's PP guitars, neither of which have cross straps. And I can see no evidence that they ever did (filled holes, etc.)

One of those aforementioned guitars has one-piece pedal rods.

There were some guitars that were flocked in brown I believe.

There also were springs used on the tuning screws on the earlier guitars.

There are quite a few categories of changes that don't exist in this list (pickups, bell cranks, drop springs, pedal rod attachments, etc.) But it is certainly a good start.

And I am far from being an expert on the subject Wink

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Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer

www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

At one time I owned a late '67 early '68 that had thicker bell cranks as well as two piece lowering springs - that is - a spring plus a wire hook. That guitar also had no cross strap.
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Jerry Jones

Marvin Born · From: Ohio, USA

I have a mahogany D10. Lacquer body.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

All the mahogany mica 66 and 67 aluminum Bolt On's I've seen where brown bellies. As I remember. No cross straps till late 67 if then. However, starting around 68 Ron would add them at no charge if you asked. This was for original owners or anyone if you had a good relationship with him.

Edited to say this is just my experience with the models that had cross straps. Mike Cass is the man I'd ask. Come to think of it. The first cross straps I ever saw were on the fat backs. 69-1973. Never knew of a fat back to leave the Emmons shop without one. But again. I ain't seen em all.

b.

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

I have a '71 fatback S-10, #1157S, mica with aluminum neck, and it has a bolt-on changer, which is atypical for that year, based on what I've read.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Bobby,
I'm talking about 66 Emmons black mica D10's made out of mahogany wood. They are cannons. Greg Leisz recorded extensively with his. I recorded less extensively with mine....
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Bob

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Bob, I understand. My post was not intended to address yours. I was only trying to contribute to the thread. While posting a picture of the brown belly. I just added a shot of the top side. The guitar pictured might even have a Mahogany cabinet. Don't know. Outside of periodic maintenance. No one has laid a hand on it other than Emmons INC.

b.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

If I recall correctly, I sold a rosewood mica bolt-on D10 to Bob Hoffnar maybe 15 years ago, that was made from mahogany planks. And yes, that guitar was a cannon... the absolute LOUDEST Emmons I'd ever owned. And I have owned many.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Herb, that's the steel ! I shouldn't have let that one go.

One time I was in my kitchen in Brooklyn and there was this African band playing on the radio. There was a Pedalsteel player and the tone was astonishing. I just sat and listened and couldn't believe how good the steel sounded. After a bit I heard Bill Frizzel playing and realized it was my guitar I was listening to. Greg had borrowed it that week for a gig and I had stumbled onto the live broadcast.

Btw: I have a 67 S10 that is a bolt on. Black mica/metal neck.

I'm pretty sure one of my 67 D 10's is a wraparound body with a cut tail neck. It's a pretty freakin good sounding steel.
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Bob

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Do a forum search. I, and others, have answered these questions countless times.

What you are doing is simply posting information you suspect to be incorrect on the Internet, so it may be referenced and repeated forever -- just like the incorrect Carter serial number list.

Here are some examples of the information you may find. What I explain here I have learned from primary research, not things I was told by a guy who saw a guitar once that ......

There were four different Emmons pedals in 1964 alone, six different "fat" bellcranks in the 1960s. Three different keyheads were used in 1963 and 1964 alone. The first two guitars had very slim rear aprons, lower than the cross shafts, which were also closer to the body in those days, so of course, the stop bars were different too, and dos the pedals stopped.

There are so many details I have written about and it is a pain in the a-- to correct your pile of inaccuracies. You should have tried a little harder as a start.

For example, get on the Google Machine and look up Emmons Brochure. You will see Buddie Emmons playing ES 030 002, the first completed Emmons, and you will plainly see a knee lever. There sere six Emmons knee levers in 1964. If you had done simple Forum searches, you would have known that and you would know that they are not long straight silver knees with brackets as you describe.

You are doing no favors knowingly posting information that is incorrect and hoping someone who knows what they are talking about will correct it for you.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Bill Lowe · From: Connecticut

First of all Mr Lucker, that information was found with a Google search. Secondly how would I know if the info is true or not if someone who knows does not correct it. My original post was formed as a question. Third I am pretty sick of your condescending attitude when someone asks a question that you think they should know or didnt search the right way. I have every right to ask whatever question I want to.I am interested in listening to everybody's experiences, not just yours. , this is a forum. P. S. You are knowledgable on Emmons guitars but that doesn't mean I believe everything you say. I think you are assuming a lot yourself.thanks for ruining the thread and turning into a thread about yourself....again. Just because you have money to buy old Emmons guitars and pay Mike Cass to fix them doesn't mean you know everything and you can treat people the way you do. Maybe, just maybe somebody might have something to contribute besides you.
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JCH D10, 71 D10 P/p fat back, Telonics TCA 500C--12-,Fender JBL Twin, Josh Swift signature.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Yes, it is a Forum.

Use the Forum search function before repeating misinformation.

How do you tell if information is correct? Use primary research. Tat is all that I do.

I won't be sharing it here, though.

I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

John Brabant · From: Calais, VT, USA

Geez Chris. Take a pill. Bill is a good guy and one of our Forum family, as are you. Give him and the rest of us some slack.

We are all interested in learning as much as we can about the history of the wonderful Emmons PP guitar. You have done the research first hand and we all can benefit from your work effort. This post and the discussion, despite it going off the rails a bit, does highlight the need for someone (maybe Chris Lucker along with other most knowledgeable Emmons historians) to get this all down in one place; maybe a white paper, maybe a book containing the guitar's history and the many stories surrounding its development? I think that is what are all in need of, it would be a resource to answer all of these questions, which will no doubt continue to be asked repeatedly as more and more players rediscover this classic.
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John Brabant
1978 Emmons D-10 P-P

Bill Lowe · From: Connecticut

Chris you can babble all you want. I did a Google search and forum search and found that info, posted it for people with knowledge and experience to correct it. Yes you were right, just a friendly conversation about old Emmons guitars from people who have been there and done that. I also like to here from the older experienced players who actually use them. That's what the forum is for. Not somebody like you pounding your chest and treating people like garbage. And don't tell me what I can post or what questions I can ask. I'm sure Bob will let me know. And no I wouldn't knowingly post false information. I think that should cover it. Rolling Eyes

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JCH D10, 71 D10 P/p fat back, Telonics TCA 500C--12-,Fender JBL Twin, Josh Swift signature.

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

some people can take all the fun out of a simplest things.... I like Emmons guitars, but not any more or less then I like any other brand...
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www.steelguitarsonline.com

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

"You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
"Yeccchhh. Can't stand flies."
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Tommy Auldridge · From: Maryland, USA

I know everything, but I'm not going to tell anybody. Cool

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I should hope not. Attracts flies.

Wayne Ledbetter · From: Arkansas, USA

I'm a lIittle newer to things than a lot of you. Unless there is gross error, I don't see why some one can't post a question/comment. It's just a forum. Probably OK to correct someone about a fact. But isn't it better to do it with diplomacy? I use to have an Emmons back in the day and there wasn't much information nor help regarding things. Is there a person or persons that can actually represent the history of Emmons? Lots of years and models. I would think you would have to be an Emmons factory guy working on just about all the units to know that or Emmons mechanic with lots of experience, unless there is an account somewhere. From what I gather, there was a lot of different things going on as production progressed.
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Sho Bud Super Pro, Fender Twin Reissue, Martin HD-28, Gibson J-45, Gibson RB-250,Stelling Bellflower,Regal Dobro, Takamine and Alvarez Classical, Fender Telecaster, Peavey Studio Pro 112. Mainly played Gospel and some bluegrass.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

This is going to be the same lame old text that perpetuates wrong information.
But you don't really need the detailed facts. You aren't going to do anything with it anyway.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

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