Rating proficiency

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

How do rate Steel guitar proficiency?
Beginner, intermediate, jouneyman,Pro??
I can play 40 Solo's by memory, read tab, know all positions for major/ minor chords,etc. But when I hear pros at the steel guitar shows, I still feel like a beginner! What is your take ??

Smiley Roberts · From: Hendersonville,Tn. 37075

I consider myself an average steeler,maybe a "half-notch" above average. But then,when I attend a steel show,& hear guys like Emmons,Green,Hicks,& Beavers,it gets knocked right back down to "average".(even below!!)
YIKES!! Where do these guys come up w/ that stuff??

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  ~ ~


  ©¿©  It don't mean a thang,   


  mm   if it ain't got that twang.


       www.ntsga.com

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

SMILEY- If you an average player, then I really feel locked up in 1st gear!

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Proficiency, "Able to take on challenge and stay alive"

Proficiency?, Lets go in reverse...

Professional, Journeyman, Intermediate, IFR, VFR, Beginner, "Crash and Burn". I'm towards the end of the list & love it...

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 16 November 2004 at 10:35 AM.]

Perry Hansen · From: Bismarck, N.D.

All I can say is I enjoy the hell out of trying to be Emmons, Byrd, Chalker, Remington, etc. Even tho it comes out a garble up mess.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Whenever I listen to a musician, regardless of the instrument, it is obvious to me whether he or she can play. By this, I mean able to express interesting and original musical ideas with a pleasing tone and timbre. It's really pretty obvious. I don't give A's B's and C's, if the player is capable of carrying on a musical conversation that SAYS SOMETHING with other musicians, I will listen. I guess it's kinda like a 'pass/fail' system.

Being able to regurgitate someone else's licks or solos or play like a music box or tape recorder doesn't enter the picture to me. We already have a Buddy and a Paul and a Lloyd. I look for original ideas and approaches. I'd much rather listen to someone with new ideas and cleverly turned musical phrases than to someone who only plays what they've heard someone else play.

Knowing music theory is a tool, not the finished product. No matter how conversant a player is with scale and chord construction, if they don't use it in an interesting way, they'd might as well not know it.

Just my li'l ole prejudice. Either you can play or you can't. Unfortunately, the way many folks go about learning the instrument (parroting tab off a page or worship of a hero and trying to BE that person, musically, with few original ideas) will not lead to being able to REALLY PLAY.

A jam session where the player knows some of the tunes and doesn't know others is the best venue to determine what a player is made of, IMHO.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Hmmm..."proficient"? Curious term. It really means "expert", but expert in what area? You see, IMHO, we have to separate the two major aspects of talent, "ability", and "style".

Style sells. Style is everything in today's market. It's what the masses appreciate. Meanwhile, ability, true ability, usually lurks in the shadows. (It's recognized only by good musicians.) That means that it isn't what's really in demand, and that's quite sad. People (the masses) gravitate towards what's new, different, and unique, and therefore, real musicians sometimes get passed over and forgotten while stylists get the TV shows and press coverage. The stylists get all the attention (they sell in the millions). And those with TRUE ability? Well, they mostly have to be happy with whatever they can get.

If I had to chose singers between Bob Dylan and Larry Gatlin, I know who's the better singer, and who has the better voice. But, there's a lot of people out there who would rather see and hear Dylan. A Dylan concert would likely outsell a Gatlin concert by a factor of 10. Go figure. Some would even (defensively) say..."you can't compare them, it's apples and oranges".

I say...Bullhockey!

Those are the people who can't separate style from true ability, and they are legion.

So, a really "master" steeler, IMHO, would be one who was equally at home playing western swing, country, rock, pop, and jazz. Someone who was only good in one or two of these might be proficient...in those particular styles, but I would never call him a "master" of the instrument.

Get it?

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

How can you rate proficiency in a matter of performance? In music OR sports, one moment you might be brilliant, the next you're whackin' off both thumbs at once. This seems to be the human condition: eat the same, sleep the same, practice the same, but nothin's the same, from day to day or even moment to moment.

For myself, on a good night I have no worries at all, on a bad night the best I can hope for is to have enough chops in the can to make it to the end of the show without poopin' all over myself in public (don't always make it, either). That comes from practice - building the responses into my subconscious so that there is at least SOMETHING there.

Am I alone in this? Hope not....

Dave

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Strung Out on Great Sounds

pdxaudio.com/dgbio

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 16 November 2004 at 04:52 PM.]

Michael Holland · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

[This message was edited by Michael Holland on 16 November 2004 at 06:47 PM.]

Steve Frost · From: Scarborough,Maine

Donny- I always aprpreciate your thoughtful posts, but... Bob Dylan and Larry Gatlin? I'm having a hard time fitting them in the same mental breath. Is it possible that Larry has a few hundred timeless songs under his name that I'm just not familiar with? In truth, I got accustomed to the early Dylan voice, and more recently he sounds like he's doing a bad caricature of himself. I've found it painful at times. But it could be about a lot more than just the voice. I mean, he's been there and back. Have you heard anyone quoting Gatlin lyrics recently? "It aint me, Babe!"

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Not to mention those of us who play all the swing stuff AND jazz AND mambo AND blues AND motown AND rock AND pop AND folk...oh yeah, I forgot, AND traditional country music on the E9 neck cause, well, that's all we got!

Not that I consider myself a master, but I DO have some fun now and then and it's been awhile since anyone took a shot at me to shut me up....

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 16 November 2004 at 09:34 PM.]

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 16 November 2004 at 09:35 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Interesting.

My own personal standards?

A Beginner hasn't played any live gigs, or recorded successfully with a band.

Intermediate, I'd give at a hundred or so successful gigs.

Journeyman I'd give at a thousand gigs. Their ability ranges from moderately acceptable to as good as it gets, they just haven't spent their lives pursuing excellence. More of an ability to "play as they live", and keep it balanced with a "notmal life".

Master comes at 35-40 years of STEADY playing. Not just having one under your bed for 25 of those years. They can play the Opry, and they can play tha Moose Lodge. The Main Stage at the SGC or the Midnite record shop, they can play any song with any band in their genre, not know what chords the band is going to play, and NEVER play a wrong note. It in my mind is reserved to the ones that we know. Charleton, Emmons, Green, Rugg, Anderson, Franklin, Hughey, Carver, Myrick, Manness, Drake, Jernigan and only a dozen others. There are MANY Masters. They've given their WHOLE LIFE to our craft. Not just a convenient part of it.

The Deceased, the Jimmy Days Julian Tharpes, Speedy Wests, HRs, et al are I guess, Past Masters. I dunno how that works. I suppose I'll find out by and by...

Then there's the slightly newer generation of those that have mastered the instrument, the Bruce Boutens, Danny Muhammads, Terry Crisps, Gary Morses, Randy Beavers' and the List goes on and on. Mastery however of the instrument only goes into being "A Master". It's funny. They won't necessarly know it when they become "True Masters". We will however,

( Andres Segovia was considered a hack commercial player until he outlived and outplayed all his detractors by 50 years...)

"Professional" is the word I see thrown about a little too much. Basically should be reserved for whom Pedal Steel Playing is Sole Profession for a good long chunk of time. Not just cherry picking a few good gigs here and there while filing your taxes as a plumber, construction worker, pilot, cop or robber, for the years you claimed that you were one.

Myself, I consider myself a "cardholding" journeyman in as much as my faith in my ability to handle live gigs in any circumstance. I allow that most can be done off the cuff with a songlist, and there's no shame in needing a "Work Tape". Much like a welder that can weld good sturdy though not necessarily XRay Quality beads in good and bad weather, with good steel and rusty. Even though it's a part time job. It's a steady one. You have to have good equipment that's ready to go, and have ATA cases if you need them.

I'm not a "Professional". There was only a 7 year period when it was all I made. I don't consider it necessarily my best playing, and don't even consider those years as my "professional period". There just wasn't anything else to do. I lived in a car a lot, and played 250 or more gigs a year.

I enjoy what I do, but at any given moment I pass on having excellence as a lifetime goal, by needing the money. It makes it easier to work some of the critter clubs. I don't look so "frustrated". I don't feel that way either. I'm sure many can relate.

How good are you?

That's always best to let others decide. Word gets around, one way or another.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 16 November 2004 at 10:52 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Interesting question. You can't really have hard and fast rules, but I'd say a beginner vs. an intermediate player would be determined by how much they play in front of an audience. An intermediate vs. expert would be determined by how many songs they know, and how well they can play along to songs they don't know. If someone's skill drops off sharply as soon as they're not playing something they've memorized, they're still at an intermediate level. Expert would probably be where the bulk of working professionals are. An expert vs. a master would be determined by their writing ability, and by how they're perceived by their peers. A grandmaster would be somebody who has high marks in every category, who has also achieved fame and respect from the public and has had their innovations adopted by other musicians.

Probably nobody would be solidly in one category or another except for rank amateurs and the BE BC PF LG JB crowd. Everybody else would be in several categories at once.

Just some thoughts.

-Travis

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

So last weekend I was feelin' pretty good about where I am in "Proficiency"..lots of early AM woodshedding, new phrases, a couple of hot licks, you know all that stuff..

Here comes the gig, and I bring a recorder..

this was Fri night..

Sat AM I listen back..HOLY COW !

WHo was making all those terrible noises ? Yep..thats right..me..

Sat night I put a little note between the necks..3 words.. ( it's still there )

Simplicity Pitch Melody

I recorded again on Sat. night and although not briliiant, and not offensive, it was better..

Humility is an amazing tool

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 November 2004 at 02:02 AM.]

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

How many steel guitarists could make a living playing live jazz in New York City, where you're expected to know several hundred standards and be able to play them in any key? How many could play a gig with the local philharmonic orchestra, reading the violin or cello parts which are well within the steel guitar's range? For that matter, how many "master" classical violinists could hold down a gig at a country bar, or the aforementioned jazz gig? My point being, the standards for proficiency vary widely according to style of music and instrument played. It is possible to achieve a very high level of proficiency through practice while rarely (or never) approaching the transcendent function of music that I listen for - it's like a 130wpm typist. To me, a "master" can play anything they can think of, they think of a lot of very interesting things, and their personality shines through it all. Life is too short to listen to elevator music.

Charles Curtis · Posted 17 Nov 2004 4:44 am

Many years ago I had the unique pleasure of meeting Jay Dee Maness. At that time I couldn't find much in the way of tab, etc. He was so kind to me and showed me a lot (and was patient because I don't pick up stuff as quick as he can) on the psg. If this hadn't happened, I don't know if I would have pursued this elusive instrument any further. I think that musicians like Jay Dee are rare. I'll never forget him.

Mark Metdker · From: North Central Texas, USA

I still haven't figured out everythig that an S-10 with 3 foot pedals adn 3 knee levers will do yet! Much less a D-10 or D-12 or U12 will do. I learned a long time ago to not try to measure myself against other players. I will always find something that another player does better than I do. BUT, I may be better at other things...you know? M goal now is to ENHANCE the song, not try to impress people with my playing. I have developed this attitude out of necessity......'cause I ain't that great! HA!

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BMI S-10
Peavey Session 500

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Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

Great answers guys !!! Sounds like if you only play one tuning, a couple styles of music(pop/country)and no gigs, you can consider yourself a beginner regardless how good you may sound.
This has been a very interesting post for me! Thanks, everyone!

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

My proficiency would have to be in making mistakes while enjoying that I'm able to own and play the guitar.

I swear, each day the guitar says to me, "Come. Sit down. Do something here."

James
Sho-Bud LDG

Ron ! · Posted 17 Nov 2004 10:01 am

Richard

Richard Gonzales · From: Davidson, NC USA

Ron- In neutral you can get a push to the top of the mountain and see how fast you can coast down. A lot faster than being stuck in first gear.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

T. C. Furlong · From: Lake County, Illinois, USA

I agree with Donny. There are two things in question here. What John Q. Public thinks of a player and what the peers of the player think of him or her. Move the Dylan/Gatlin example to steel players. If you were to ask the average music fan in their 40's what their idea of a proficient steel player would be, I bet you'd hear Jerry Garcia a lot more than Buddy or Lloyd. Ask the average forumite (none of whom are average by any means) and I'll bet that the tally would be flipped. It could just be that the average music fan has not been exposed to high level steel guitar or perhaps the stylized steel part on TEACH YOUR CHILDREN spoke to that person in some way. I ramble, but I guess my point is that proficiency is relative.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I agree with Larry Bell - very well put!

(.....and I feel similar to how Smiley does at those steel shows - those guys usually shatter any illusions I may have developed since the last time I heard them!!!)

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 20 November 2004 at 07:25 AM.]

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