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Topic: cabinet drop |
Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2004 1:37 pm |
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| Hi folks, I recently obtained an older guitar(approx. 20 plus yrs old)and the cabinet drop is more than I'd like so I'm wondering if anyone knows of an alternative to the Lashley system. Maybe there's a permanent truss(es) that can be designed & retrofitted. I have access to some very talented/knowledgeable engineering people with the appropriate software to help me do the stress analysis,etc but I don't want to waste their time if someone has already developed something or discovered that it isn't worth the effort. I like the tone of this guitar and would like to be sure I explore all the possibilities. Thanks for any feedback, Marty B. |
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David Higginbotham
From:
Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2004 3:04 pm
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Hey guys, this is a bit off of Marty's topic, but Marty has to be one of the "best" pickers around. Certainly down here without a doubt! I encourage ya'll to get a copy of Wayne Toups newest CD to hear some amazing playing by Marty. It will leave you scratching your head! Marty can also direct you to some of his previous work.
Dave[This message was edited by David Higginbotham on 19 October 2004 at 04:05 PM.] |
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2004 3:09 pm
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| Martin, Have you thought of having compensators installed? I don't have them on mine and know very little about it but that is what the builders use to pull the strings back into tune...JD |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 4:54 am
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| David, thanks, I REALLY appreciate that. Just when I reach a mental slump you post those comments and it helps me to hang in a little longer. I needed it. Take care,Marty B. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 5:00 am
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| John, I have thought of adding the compensators, but when you consider that you have to deal with the cabinet drop and the axle deflection I thought that stiffening the cabinet with a truss system would at least eliminate the cabinet problem and then I could experiment with the axle issue. There's so many materials available today versus in the past that I thought it might be worth a try. Any other feedback is welcome!!! |
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Ron !
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 5:07 am
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Martin.
I build my own steel a couple of weeks ago and i used plywood.
On the keyhead end i used a different size.I think it is more then 1"inch thick.
When i assembled all the parts and took the steel for a testdrive something amazed me.There was NO cabinetdrop.None...
And i did not put up compensators allthough i was willing to put them up.
Weird huh?
Ron
Nikaro SD10 4x6
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 5:22 am
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| Ron, that is really weird. Bud Carter told me that it was impossible to build a guitar without cabinet drop. He said he once attached the guitar components to a huge steel plate table(3/4"-1" thick) and still measured cabinet drop......JD |
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Ron !
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 5:30 am
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John
I measured it also and there was none...what so ever.I can't explain it.Normaly you press A and B and you can see the cabinetdrop on your tuner but with me there wasn't any.
I've looked several times and uptill now there is no drop.
Ron
Nikaro SD10 4x6
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Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 5:46 am
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| On my Zum (s12u) I can't see any drop on the tuner, but when I push pedals 6 and 7 togather the whole bar the pedals are on pops up against the adjustment knob on the leg. Is this unusual? It's unnerving, but doesn't happen often since all my stuff is E9. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 6:01 am
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Ron,
There is a more sensitive measurement for cabinet drop than the fourth string with A+B pressed. Tune an unwound sixth string straight up to G#; press the A pedal and measure the change. Please report back. I'd be curious what the numbers for your plywood guitar are. If it's really zero, I'll be very surprised. I like to measure it two ways: press the A pedal JUST TO THE STOP and measure; and press the A pedal with MORE force than it takes to hit the stop.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 20 October 2004 at 07:05 AM.] |
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Ron !
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 8:35 am
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Larry.
Tuned it up to G# and pressed A pedal.There was a little drop from 440 to 439/5.Almost none.
I am very surprised also.I thought there would be more drop then this.
Ron
Nikaro SD10 4x6 |
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 10:18 am
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Howard Tate, That pedal bar should not move. At least it never did on any guitar I have owned. If you can't tighten the clamps or bolts on the pedal bar to make it more secure, I think you need to find a way to secure it. Some older pedal bars attached with bolts through holes in the legs. They certainly wouldn't move.
I just had an after thought... maybe your pedal rods are not adjusted properly. Take the rods loose from the pedals, tighten the pedal bar up against the leg adjusting nuts, reattach the pedal rods and adjust them for that height.......JD |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 10:37 am
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I've yet to see a PSG that doesn't have cabinet drop/axle flex. In my experience, bracing the body usually renders the tone lifeless.
I tolerate cabinet drop by using a wound sixth, and tuning the E's with A and B pedals down, then releasing the pedals, and tuning the rest of the strings to the E's. (which are now very slightly sharp of true E)
R B. |
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Ron !
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 1:02 pm
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Richard.
Axle flex is something that most of the PSG builders have banned out of their guitars.Just take a look at the material that some of the builders are using.Some use Stainless steel and others are using aluminum 6061.I use a different kind of material that i will not reveal here. 
I use the same material for my bellcranks.But this is only for the steel that i am building at the moment.The next steels are gonna be build with Wayne Link from Linkon guitars.co.
If you want to see the steel i am building right now you will have to come to the dutch steel guitar days next year.That will be the place where i will show this steel guitar.
And for the cabinet drop........i can tell you that i used a plain and a wound string on the lower G#.And still the cabinet drop stays the same.....almost none.
I must add to this story that there are some features on this steel that i have never seen on other brands.
Ron
Nikaro SD10 4x6[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 20 October 2004 at 02:02 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Oct 2004 1:46 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...the cabinet drop is more than I'd like... |
Well, how much is that? Not to be funny, but many players judge "cabinet drop" by what their tuner says, and that's entirely wrong. It is only what you can hear that really matters. Anything else is just a statistic.
Can you build a guitar without any noticeable or audible cabinet drop? Yes, easily! Fender did it on their old cable-operated models. Now, I suppose you could "scientifically" measure a small fraction of a cent drop even in those, but you sure couldn't hear it, or even see it on most tuners, and that's the important thing.
I studied the problem a while back, and found that most of what we call "cabinet drop" is caused by using more force than necessary on the pedals. The pedals translate downward movement to a lateral movement, and the problem is that most all guitars connect the top deck to the front apron. Pushing a pedal down pulls the front apron down, and the top deck along with it, and voila! Instant "cabinet drop". (The old Fenders had a heavy, wrap-around frame, and the decks "floated" in that frame.) On some other older guitars, the problem is also caused by flexing of the changer-axle. Some manufacturers used too small an axle, or a poor grade of steel, or a combination of both. This would cause a similar problem.
Rather than a "counter-force" mechanism, or an elaborate "bracing system", I'd recommend simply stiffening the front apron, and/or installing a new changer or a changer axle made of a good grade of steel. Once you can get the drop down to 2 or 3 cents, it really becomes a moot point to try and reduce it any further.
That's my2cents, anyway.
[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 October 2004 at 02:49 PM.] |
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David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 6:29 am
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FWIW, back in 82 when I'd just gotten my U12 MSA, I wanted to minimize even further what barely noticeable detuning I was getting on my plain 6th string with three pulls on both the Bs and Es.
I talked someone at a steel company out of a 10" piece of AISI T15 1/2" steel rod (Rockwell 63-64). My carbide hacksaw merely polished it  so I had a jeweler friend grind it to size.
It made NO difference over the stock axle in the changer. I was surprised. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 7:39 am
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Not surprising, Dave. The "axle flex" issue is rather minimal in most modern (i.e., made in the last 20 years) guitars.
Actually, this "cabinet drop" problem is a bit overblown, what with modern tuners...and their ability to make an inaudible/inconsequential problem very easy to see. |
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Charlie Moore
From:
Deville, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 12:25 pm
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Marty,are you sorry you asked????  |
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Clyde Lane
From:
Glasgow, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 12:49 pm
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You might ask Duane Marrs. There are pic's of what looks like a piece of "L" metal attached to the front apron on some of the Sho-Buds he rebuilds to lessen cabinet drop.
Clyde |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 5:01 pm
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| I know what causes cabinent drop. Tuners. |
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Jack Strayhorn
From:
Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 6:06 pm
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| Marty, You are on the right track. Most of the drop is in the flex of the changer. Not just the axle but in the entire unit. If the guitar is a push/pull then if adjusted right has it's on built in Lashley system. This is where Ron Lashley got the idea from in the first place. We did countless experiments with the body at Emmons and nothing we tried ever eliminated it. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 6:22 pm
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Hey folks, I appreciate all of the feedback. I didn't ramble in my first post and I'll try not to on this one. I mean what I state hereafter as POLITELY/COURTEOUSLY as I can.....I asked the question because of what I can HEAR. It is my understanding that most humans can hear a tone that is flat at approx. -3 to 5 cents and sharps it's a little bit more.
The playing situation I'm currently in has me faced with something I've never had before. We have the usual drums and bass...but in addition we have (2)guitarist, a keyboard, and .....(3)cajun accordians that are "double-tuned" that are used individually throughout the night. These accordians are tuned in a special temper tuning. In the past, in smaller local bands, I could get by with tuning very similar to Jeff's charts, but these days I'm playing with some (literal) world class musicians who have very discriminating ears and since we don't have a fiddle player I'm the guy who gets pointed at most often when we hear a wave on stage.(I love fiddle, but not having one means I can't point at anybody---ha)Seriously, it's most likely the accordians that are causing the largest part of the problem, but I can hear a few things that I'd like to correct on my instrument without having to "think" too much about slight slants,etc. When we recorded the CD that David Higginbotham referred to earlier in this post I retuned my guitar several times for various playing situations and the engineer used Pro Tools to help me sweeten some tones.(He also realized what I was seeing and had the accordian parts overdubbed on some songs too.)When I listen to some things on that CD I can hear some flat tones that got past us---some of the others thought that I was doing it on purpose and that it sounded cool.(whew!!, my wife and kids must be living right for me to get away with it!!)
I realize that placing a truss may effect the tone/resonance of the guitar along with any other gremlins that may appear, but I'm willing to experiment---so I posed the question. I want to make sure ya'll know that I appreciate the feedback. Thanks again and best regards to all. Marty B. |
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Farris Currie
From:
Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 6:40 pm
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| Yes,and the wood it is built with has everthing to do with it.my emmons when i got it in 1996 wouldn't even hit the stops.pedals by passed stop.Jack told me to beat them over,and i did until they worked for awhile,in a few months same thing again.cabinet warped all to'''',finally in 6yrs.the guts fell out!GREEN WOOD,TOMMY WHITE,said his did the same thing.i lost a 3500.00 guitar JUNK! farris currie |
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Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 7:03 pm
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| John, thanks for the reply. I'll try to check it out as you said. I believe the guitar needs some fine adjusting, when I get some confidence back I'll try that. A string change is in order also. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2004 7:36 pm
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| Hey folks, another quick note. The guitar I used on the CD I mentioned in my last post was not an Emmons. It was a major/popular brand guitar with 3 cents or less drop, so I'm trying to improve on a DIFFERENT guitar now, and you have to consider--as previously mentioned-- that (3) cents doesn't usually make a difference. In addition, I don't want to get into brand bashing because I started playing when I was (11) years old so I've owned several guitars and they ALL had some drop or other gremlins about them. Maybe the solution is to purchase a Legrande III---I'd just rather not wait on a list, I love the guitar I'm playing, and I figured that someone has already researched and possibly found a solution to the drop and raise issues so I could experiment quickly. My best to all, Marty B. |
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