Palm blocking

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

I've been playing almost a year, things are going well, except for -palm blocking-!! When resting my hand near the strings, my palm is a good inch away from touching. I have Winnie w. book and the exercises wihin, but it is not a natural gesture for that palm to touch between notes. My teacher puts his pinky underneath his palm, also unnatural. any ideas? Thanks JimP

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

BTW, I have been reading the older threads, just looking for some new inspiration! JP

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Jim, you might try thinking of it in reverse. Only raise your hand off the strings to let the sound come through. At rest the palm, or heel side of your hand should lay across the strings. I extend my little finger out. I've seen it done both ways, but that's the comfortable way for me. Hope this helps.

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Randy
http://hometown.aol.com/pulltightb/home.html

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Jim, you have to turn your hand on its side and get the palm resting down on the strings. Don't play flat handed. Your index finger knuckle should be raised up. As Randy said think of palm blocking in reverse. Get your hand rolled to the right a little, raise the knuckle, palm on strings. The fingers are at a fourty five degree angle, not straight up and down. Then start lifting up like you are pulling the notes off the strings. When I first started I had the same trouble as you did. If you start by pulling up and then letting your palm back down I think its a little easier concept for the brain to accept. Jeff Newman's "Right hand Alpha" explains this all perfectly and I highly suggest it.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 23 September 2004 at 07:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 23 September 2004 at 07:53 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 23 September 2004 at 07:55 PM.]

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Thanks Kevin and Randy. And Randy, it was for me that you demoed a NV112 in the Peavy booth in St Louis, thank you, I bought one , it is a great amp! I will try both your ideas, it is quite difficult for me, but I won't give up. Kevin, how is your ZB? I finally sold mine, I have a GFI SD10, it as a way better guitar for me a this stage of the game. Thanks guys, JimP

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

Jim,

I started playing 9 monhts ago. I'm also using the Winnie Winston book and a bunch of other materials. If you'd like to email sometime feel free. I'm also picking a GFI. Good Luck!

Bob P.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

When I first started learning to play, I practiced the palm blocking exercises in the Winnie Winston/ Bill Keith book every day for a month. It just wasn't working, and I figured I'd be the guy who could never get it! Then one day as I started the exercises, it was happening,I was blocking. A milestone for me. Sure didn't feel natural at all until the day it started working....Jerry

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Blocking is voodoo
Randy really pointed out an important way of looking at any style of blocking: start with strings blocked; unblock the desired strings; reblock when the note duration has passed. So, bottom line is that the strings are ALWAYS blocked, except when being sounded.

Another palm blocking principle is to KEEP THE HAND AS CLOSE TO THE STRINGS AS POSSIBLE. I see a lot of players who pick a string and their hand flies up two or three inches - or more. This is a bad habit that will inhibit smoothness and building speed.

An exercise that may help
* set a metronome to 60 or so
* play a scale starting on the 8th string of E9



1-------------------------------------------


2------------------------------------3------


3-------------------------------------------


4------------------------------------------3


5------------------------------3~~3A--------


6----------------------3~~3B----------------


7------------3------------------------------


8-3-----------------------------------------


  t(r)-t(b)--t(r)-t(b)- etc.


t=metronome tick r=let ring  b=block

only block when playing a new string
don't block the 3~~3B or 3~~3A

* palm DOWN (over all strings)
* palm UP (1/2 inch or less)
* pick string
* let ring ONE TICK of the metronome
* palm DOWN ONE TICK of the metronome
* pick next note when the metronome ticks

If the metronome is faster than you can handle, SLOW IT DOWN until you get it right. It's much more important to get precision than speed when learning this technique. Hope this isn't too confusing.

The objective is not to have to think about it. When this becomes second nature, you've arrived.

Good luck

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 September 2004 at 06:27 AM.]

Chuck McGill · From: An hour from Memphis and 2 from Nashville, R.I.P.

What if I play flat handed? Will I get some
weird affliction or tone?

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Another option would be to get your pick blocking together, it's harder at first than palm blocking, but once you get it happening, you can play clean and fast more easily, in my very humble opinion. I've grown to like the sound too, it's a little more modern ala Paul Franklin, but the palm blocking sound can be great if you want a more vintage Lloyd Green kind of sound.

Without a doubt, as Larry wisely advised, the best thing to do is to practice this stuff with drum machine or metronome. Will make a huge difference.

[This message was edited by Gerald Menke on 24 September 2004 at 08:14 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Two exercises are to leave the hand blocking right on the changer, and get a smooth pick roll and variations with it blocking totally,

Then practice the rols with a bouncing lift of the palm

This does two things.
gets you used to picking with palm in correct position, and then creates timing relationships between picking an blocking.

But also don't forget to try pick blocking and only using the palm for global blocking sometimes.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 September 2004 at 09:14 AM.]

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Might I suggest a look at the video "The Right Hand Alpha" by the late Jeff Newman. If your right index finger is vertical now it'll be closer to horizontal when he gets done. It's a trial changing over but the blocking (for me) seems to work.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Back in the 70's I was trying to get a more modern sound with more single notes and all and was having one helluva time trying to get the palm thing down. I read in W.Winston's book about some folks double the ring finger under and block with that and it really works for me. As far as flat handed, what's wrong with that? JayDee Maness does it and plays as good or better than just about anyone out there. Pick blocking is great too. I think that everyone's hand is different and contacts the steel in a different manner so a person should find what's most natural and comfortable for them and go with it. I find that I have a lot easier time wearing my thumb and fingerpicks as far up as they'll go ala Doug Jernigan & Paul Franklin. The tone seems better that way too and for sure the blocking is much easier.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Randy and Larry B speak with straight tongue.

I teach my students the technique but I call it "palm release." The strings are blocked by default, and are only allowed to ring when I lift my hand the micro-distance needed to let the string ring.

Proper hand position: Give the strings, directly over the pickup, a "karate chop." Then let your hand fall naturally and relaxed to the left. Curl the necessary fingers... all of them if that feels natural and relaxed to you. Relaxation is the key. Make sure the 1st joint of the thumb is roughly parallel with the string it will be striking.

I curl both my ring and pinky finger under. I block with the fleshy part of my palm, and with the first knuckle of my ring finger.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 24 September 2004 at 10:06 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I noticed something while watching a video of a steel jam: the better a player is, the less he moves his right hand. Beginners hold their hand an inch above the strings and have a very exagerrated blocking motion. The really accomplished players hardly move the hand at all. You know that they're blocking notes, but it's hard to see any vertical movement.

I remember when I was starting out, doing "pick, block, pick, block" exercises for hours. It probably contributed to the divorce!

If you're not changing string groups, pick blocking is sometimes actually easier than hand blocking. For example, if you're playing a run that alternates between the 3rd and 5th strings, it's pretty easy to block the 5th string with your thumb pick as you pluck the 3rd string, and visa versa. The blocking motion sets you up for the next note on the blocked string, and no vertical hand motion is required.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

John Pelz · From: Kettering, Ohio, USA

This is a great thread -- chock-full of good information! One question that I have, though (beginner that I am), is this: is all of the above equally applicable to steel guitar (ie- lap-style or the IMO inelegant description, "non-pedal") as it is to pedal steel, as far as proper right hand/blocking technique goes? I'd think that it would be, and don't see why it'd matter whether you were playing pedal or not when it comes to proper blocking technique, curvature of the top of the hand, etc., but was wondering if some more experienced players could clarify this for me. It looks like all of the above posts refer to pedal players or make reference to where to rest one's hand on the pedal steel (ie - the changer, etc.), and that's what got me wondering whether the above is equally applicable to lap-steel as well...

And how about Chuck McGill's question above? This thread has good information regarding proper technique, but can someone explain (particularly for beginners) the drawbacks/repercussions of improper technique?

Ron ! · Posted 25 Sep 2004 11:56 am

I have a question for all the men that are talking about right-hand blocking.
The only thing that i hear on the forum is Right-Hand Blocking.I never hear any of you talking about Left-Hand blocking.

I played Hawaiianguitar for over 25 years.When i started on that guitar i had a teacher that said.....Left hand blocking is just as important as right hand blocking.
There was a Dutch hawaiianguitarist named "Coy Pereira" that used left hand blocking quit a bit.He played the hawaiianguitar for over 65years and was one of the greatest in hawaiian music.

But there must be quit some pedlers among us that started of on a lapsteel or hawaiianguitar.So this question might be more related to them than it is for the people that started with a PSG.

Are there people that use left-hand blocking the way i do?

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

And John.If you have problems palmblocking...just hook yourself up to the electricity..and everytime you do it wrong you get shocked...i'll bet you will be blocking like BE in two days.

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 25 September 2004 at 01:00 PM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Just cuious how many dedicated palm blockers use 3 picks + thumbpick?

I think I naturally developed into a pick blocker for that reason. In my case palm blocking came later as a hard to learn effect more than the basis of my general technique.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Although I gave an example using pedal steel (the vast majority of Forumites do play pedal steel), the techniques are identical. I never mentioned anything about the changer or where to position the right hand. That can vary depending on the tone you are trying to get from the instrument.

Since the topic was palm blocking and that refers to the right hand, I limited my response to that technique. It is absolutely true that we use both hands to produce the finished product -- regardless of whether the guitar has pedals. Left hand blocking has been mentioned numerous times in other posts. Only covering the minimum number of strings with the bar and blocking the higher strings with the middle finger of the left hand are bot important techniques.

As I see it there are three choices:
* block the note(s) with the right hand -- palm or picks
* block a higher string by moving the bar back towards the player and muting with the extended finger of the LH
* don't block at all

Hope this helps some. If you want more information on LH blocking, do a search.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

John Pelz · From: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Thanks for the clarification, Larry. This has all been very helpful.

And Ronald, altho the idea of "hooking myself up to the electricity" is a very interesting notion (and I bet I wouldlearn blocking real fast that way), I think I'll pass on that method for now...

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Rick, I use three fingerpicks and I've wondered the same thing. I find pure palm blocking very tricky if I want to keep all three picks in play.

One day, I took the third pick off and tucked my ring finger under. All of a sudden, without warning, I could palm block. I've since discovered that the ring finger tucked under style is far and away the easiest way for me to palm block--it actually comes naturally. But there's no way I'm giving up that third pick, and the idea of tucking it under for some parts and bringing it out for others doesn't really appeal (and how would I know when to change?).

It's kind of a dilemma, but I'm slowly trying to teach myself to palm block in a way that works with three fingerpicks. Haven't got it yet...

Of course, I do use some of my "palm" to block. I use the back part of my hand to block thumb notes. But I mostly use pick blocking and left hand blocking (I lift the bar clear off the strings to block, which is something I learned unintentionally from dobro playing).

-Travis

kbdrost · From: Prospect Heights, IL

I tuck my ring finger under like Travis. I've done it for years and don't think I could block without it. Larry Behm is a disciple of the technique, too, and shows how to do it on his videos.

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Ken Drost
steelcrazy after all these years

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Ronald, I've been a dobro player for a number of years, and left-hand bar blocking is second nature. I wish I were more adept at it with pedal steel.
And I can hear a distinct difference when Mike Auldridge switched to palm blocking, after he'd been playin steel for a while. I guess he moved his right hand forward on the dobro.

Gord Cole · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

FWIW: I was instructed to keep my elbow in at my body when blocking. When the elbow is out away from the body the hand position changes enough to make the palm blocking suffer.
--Gord

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