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Topic: How do tuning keys affect tone and sustain? |
T. C. Furlong
From:
Lake County, Illinois, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 9:16 am |
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I have always wondered how tuning keys affect the sound of a pedal steel. I have two Zumsteel D-10's that are almost identical. The main difference is the one has Klusons which Bruce put on at my request when it was built in 1981(I thought it might be more Emmons-like) The other has the stock Sperzels. The two guitars sound pretty different. I assume that greater mass in the Sperzel will have an effect. Does anyone have any experience with changing keys and comparing the tone or even sustain?
TC |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 5:05 pm
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| TC...Never thought about it much on the pedal steel, but on standard 6 strings it makes a BIG difference. Generally,bigger more rigid tuners add mass to the headstock and noticably increase the sustain and punch, and many players feel the tone is enhanced also. bob [This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 10 October 2004 at 06:06 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 5:19 pm
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I don't think the small bit of added mass makes much difference on a steel. Granted, as Bob said, it does make a difference on a straight guitar, but the physics of a steel is much different.
If you think the small amount of added mass makes a difference on a pedal steel, here's a little experiment you can easily try. Tune the steel up real good and make a recording of your playing a simple song. Now, carefully take the buttons off the tuners (this substantially reduces their mass), and play and record the same tune.
Can you hear a difference? (I couldn't.)[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 10 October 2004 at 06:19 PM.] |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 7:47 pm
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Donny, in your experiment, did you actually record your steel? If so, try placing a flat object, like a small board, across the keyhead and then lay a brick on top of the board. That would be adding lots and lots of mass. I wonder if that would add any sustain or change the tone of the guitar.
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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 10 Oct 2004 8:26 pm
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Klusons and Sperzels are made differently. I think there might be something to how the string resonates into the headstock with the different tuners. I would not swap out the Klusons on my old Emmons for fear that it would change something. Somebody else might be able to explain the differences.
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Bob
intonation help
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Frank Parish
From:
Nashville,Tn. USA
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 3:54 pm
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| Interesting post. Back in the 80's when I was learning to play on Broadway, the Wheeler guitar shop was still down there. Mr Wheeler came by one day after hearing me play in the bar down there and tried to convince me to try one of his guitars. I was playing a 72 Emmons p/p at the time and it had tone to die for. Wheeler said that a lot of the tone came from the cheap tuners. It had the old button type Kluson tuners that I love so much. I've got a couple of these old guitars still today and wouldn't think about replacing the tuners. Maybe he was right. |
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Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Oct 2004 5:08 pm
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| There are brass "clamps" that you can add to the headstock of a 6str. guitar, that claim to add sustain to your guitar. Strum a guitar,then push the body against the side of a table(gently), and you can hear a big diff. Guitars hanging on a wall in music stores usually sound great, they are resonating the wall! I did read where a bass designer(steinberger?) took the head off his guitar because it moved the resonant freq. of the neck higher than the 20th fret. Many basses have a dead spot,5th fret g string, thus his headless bass. But we're talking a lot more mass than tuners alone. JimP [This message was edited by Jim Peters on 11 October 2004 at 07:25 PM.] |
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Franklin
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 12:38 pm
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Yes, In our studies we have found that keys influence both the sound and sustain of a guitar. Think of the keys as a tuning fork on which the string vibrates. Some vibrate more than others.
Paul [This message was edited by Franklin on 12 October 2004 at 01:39 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 12 October 2004 at 01:40 PM.] |
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Ron Whitworth
From:
Yuma,Ariz.USA Yeah they say it's a DRY heat !!
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 12:54 pm
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WOW!!! learn something every day about these pedal steels!! Could this be why some builder's do not use the keyless head??????
Something to think about..Ron |
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Franklin
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 4:40 pm
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Ron,
On a Keyless guitar the strings are attached to a solid finger at both ends. Metal to metal. If you tap those fingers against a solid object they respond like a tuning fork does which allows the vibration of the string go through its natural cycle. This is why keyless models as a rule sustain longer than some keyed guitars. If a keyed guitar has every point of string contact as solid metal to metal there really is not an advantage either way in the keyless debate.
If a guitar has a poorly designed or bad key, let's say it has a worn or bad bushing. It would stop the strings vibration exactly like striking a tuning fork and then lightly clamping down on the prongs of the fork with your fingers would. It's very important that everything connected to the string be as solid as possible to allow the strings to continue their natural vibration for a long sustain in any instrument.
Paul |
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T. C. Furlong
From:
Lake County, Illinois, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 5:51 pm
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Thanks everybody for the posts. Very helpful.
Paul, what you point out makes a lot of sense. I do notice more sustain and what seems to be a more even response with the Sperzel keys. I think it is due to the fact that there is better mechanical contact with the heavier Sperzel key. You might think there would be a very small difference but it is definitely not subtle.
TC |
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Ron Whitworth
From:
Yuma,Ariz.USA Yeah they say it's a DRY heat !!
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Posted 12 Oct 2004 6:20 pm
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Thank You Mr. Franklin for the information!!..
I just learned something else I had not thought about..What you say does make sense to me now that i think about it too..
Thanks again & myself & many others here really appreciate your valuable presence on this great forum... Ron |
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Ole Dantoft
From:
Copenhagen, Denmark
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Posted 13 Oct 2004 7:52 am
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Very interresting thread !
Frank Parish : Was the -72 Emmons p/p you're referring to above black, by any chance ? 
I've had the idea of changing to more modern keys than the old Klusons that are on there now, but maybe not ?
Ole
P.S: : A certain black Emmons p/p can be seen here : http://www.oledantoft.dk
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Jackie Anderson
From:
Scarborough, ME
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Posted 13 Oct 2004 10:48 am
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| Chas Smith has, in effect, made the same point that Paul is making, and as he has made clear it's not just about mass, as such, but about the importance of firm contact between separate parts of a steel, whatever their individual "sonic" properties (which result largely from their "modulus of elasticity," i.e the manner and extent to which they return any kinetic energy applied to bend them, than from their "mass" alone -- viz. how well the light MSA Millenium works). Subject to their respective individual sonic (i.e. elasticity) characterics, all the firmly connected parts of an instrument will transmit and return more energy to and through each other, maximizing sustain and "co-vibration," i.e. they way they influence each other's vibrations; but loose connections result in energy being dissipated in individual pieces and lost to the whole, meaning less co-vibration, thus a different sound, and less sustain. The sound changes people have noticed with different tuning keys in the same instrument provide a pretty clear illustration of this, presumably due not only to different materials used but how firmly the parts are held in contact internally, but that's only one part of the instrument. Chas has written about truing up the cabinet and the end castings of his steels for the same reasons. Loose rollers in a roller nut are another evident source of sound degradation in pedal steels, while the way Push Pull changer fingers contact the body is said to be one of the positive contributors to the sound of those guitars. Conversely, tying some individual parts together too tightly may result in altering or damping out desired covibration, viz. what has been written about the effects of torquing the neck mounting bolts on Push Pulls. And so on and so forth. The knee bone connect to the neck bone... [This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 13 October 2004 at 11:51 AM.] |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 15 Oct 2004 3:52 pm
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I didn`t realize how many things are playing the roll in having a good tone on the steel until I got my first Promat.Promat will not make you a lacquer body because mica is a part of the color of the tone.And that to be egzact,certain thickness of mica.Also I had a problem finding egzact tuners for Promat because they only use one brand and model.Secret string angles,finger materials,age of the the wood and so on.I begin to understand why Promat is so stubern,Looks like they know what they are doing after all.And I begin to understand that the great tone of this guitars is not accidental after all.
Db
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"Promat"
~when the tone matters~
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