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Topic: Tuning HELP |
Sean Ronan
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2016 5:53 pm |
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Hey guys This is Sean Ronan again thank you for all your help on my last post titled begginner looing for help with the basics. Sorry I havent gotten back to eveyone Ive been messing around alot with the Steel and checking out eveything. Can Anyone help my tune my zumsteel encore to E9 Chromatic right now all the strings are tuned straight on but when i was looking at Jeffran College Tuning chart he said some need to to .5 sharp or flat can anyone help with this?
Also how do you tune the knee levels and pedals the RIGHT way
Thanks Guys! |
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2016 6:34 pm
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| Do it like the chart on Jeff's website. That's how the guitar was all tuned when you got it. If you haven't messed with it it's probably still in tune fairly well. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2016 5:47 am
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The pedals and levers are typically tuned at the endplate, but as I recall, with that system there are some tuners on the endplate that are not supposed to be touched once they leave the factory.
This should be spelled out in the user directions. |
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Sean Ronan
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2016 7:39 am Tuning HELP
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| Hey Doug, Got it I havent touched it at all but was just trying to understand the tuning more for ex the first string F# is tuned 6 cents sharp ? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2016 8:52 am
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Sean, it's called tempered tuning and is what I've found works for me. Never used the Jeff Newman chart but am assuming it is tempered tuning or a variation of it. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
For some musical reason, if all the strings and pulls are tuned to exact 440, then the guitar doesn't sound in tune with it's self.
Some I understand use this method and it works for them. It sounds out of tune to me so I use tempered tuning starting with the E's at 440 with A & B pedals down, to compensate for cabinet drop. Then I tune rest of strings to where there is no wobble in the sound of any strings with any other except for 7th string and you have to tune it to just a happy medium to rest of strings as for some musical reason, it can't be exactly in tune with all strings.
There are guys on here that know those musical reasons but me, I could care less why, I just know what sounds in tune and what doesn't to me. Just do a search on here for tuning and there are 100's of threads that may provide you more info.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Dan Klotz
From:
Houston, Texas
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2016 7:18 am
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I second this.
Sean in your tips for beginners I put a list of items you are going to want to get. I had to learn about each one the hard way.
I've played steel for almost three years now and for me the tuner is a game changer. Prior too, I was not able to get my steel in tune as good as I can with this tuner. I know some people can get the steel in tune without one, I definitely can not. I highly recommend it.
I also encourage you to not only to ask questions but use the search function on the topics. You will find so many expert opinions from previous threads. This forum really is a treasure trove of information. |
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Roger Palmer
From:
Rossendale, UK
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Posted 15 Jul 2016 7:26 am
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If you have an iPhone ot iPad you can get
the clear tune tuner quite cheap
You can put the Newman tuning offsets into it |
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Mark Hershey
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2016 1:28 pm
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| Roger Palmer wrote: |
If you have an iPhone ot iPad you can get
the clear tune tuner quite cheap
You can put the Newman tuning offsets into it |
I had a tuner that measured cents. Worked great on my guitar was awful for my PSG. I'm sure others would have great results with it, I just don't have that great of ears for fine tuning and this thing didn't seem that accurate.
At any rate the peterson is so accurate and simple to use. I finally am able to tune the damn thing quickly.
If someone can save money and get in tune more power to them, but I need the Peterson tuner. |
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Dennis N Brown
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2016 8:13 pm
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| ok fellas on this tuning subject in the pedalsteel section which Peterson tuner are you talking about and how much do they cost Peterson makes seeraltuners which one are you all using to tune your steels with dennis n brown |
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Johan Forsman
From:
Sweden
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Posted 16 Jul 2016 12:40 am
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| The most commonly used of the Peterson tuners that are avilable now I guess is the Stroboplus HD. I think that one is what most is referring to on this thread. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2016 1:57 pm
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Sean,
The short answer to your question is that there is no need to buy an expensive tuner to tune a pedal steel guitar; any decent tuner that displays Hz and cents will do.
There are tuners like that for under $20, such as the Seiko mentioned above.
The other thing you will need is a tuning chart, and Jeff Newman’s will do fine; it is available as a free download at: http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php
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Here is the longer answer as to why tuning the pedal steel is so challenging…
About 2500 years ago, the Greek mathematician Pythagoras used mathematical ratios to discover the musical intervals that sounded the most in tune to the human ear. When a fixed-pitch instrument is tuned to “Pythagorean Tuning†based on the “pure†or “perfect†interval between the root and the fifth scale-notes of the key, most people find this tuning system very pleasing and harmonious.
For more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning
However, there is a big problem with “Pythagorean Tuningâ€, and that is that it only works for a couple of closely related keys; certain notes in other keys will sound out of tune. This is due to the mathematics of calculating musical interval ratios between root and fifth notes that Pythagorean Tuning uses.
- For example, an A note will be 440 Hz in the key of A, but be 446.1 in the key of D. A difference of 6.1 Hz will sound very out of tune, even to non-musicians!
Why does this matter to steel guitarists?
Because much of the time when you engage a pedal or knee lever, you are effectively playing in a new key:
- When you step on the A and B pedals together, you are effectively modulating from the key of E to the key of A; now the root note is A and the fifth scale tone is E.
- When you engage the A pedal and the knee lever that raises your E’s to F, you are effectively playing in the key of C#; now the root note is C# and the fifth scale tone is G#.
This means that the note which was the root in one key is no longer the root and neither is the note that was the fifth scale-tone. And the third scale-tones are often out of tune in the new key, which means that many chords do not sound good.
The “Equal Temperament†Compromise
Pythagoras' “pure intonation†tuning system was widely used for over 2000 years, despite the limitation to just one or two keys.
In the 1600s, JS Bach joined the movement to alter the tuning system so that music could be played in all 12 keys, by writing a collection of preludes called the “Well-Tempered Clavierâ€. To perform these preludes, the clavier (an early form of a piano) was tuned “equally temperedâ€, a compromise tuning in which an A always equals 440 no matter what key is being played. This compromise is not noticeable to most non-musicians—and musicians just learn to accept it. 
For more info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-Tempered_Clavier
This compromise “Equal Temperament†(ET) tuning system became widely used in the Western world, and is the system used in most electronic tuners. However, many pedal steel guitarists are not comfortable with how their steel guitars sound when tuned to ET, and they adjust most of the notes with “Just Intonation†(JI) which is very close to Pythagoras’ “pure intonationâ€.
For a good summary of all of the above topics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
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“Just Intonation†tuning charts for the pedal steel:
Many years ago, Jeff Newman used a very accurate stroboscopic tuner to measure the frequency of the “Just Intonation†tuning system that Lloyd Green used in the recording studio. From these measurements, Newman produced his first tuning chart based on A equals 440. (Later he produced a second version in which A equals 441--apparently to accommodate “cabinet dropâ€.)
I prefer Jeff Newman’s first tuning chart (A=440) with the pedals down, and then I adjust the pedals-up B strings from the pedals-up E strings to accommodate cabinet drop. I got this idea from Larry Bell at: http://www.larrybell.org/id29.htm
I still use a Boss TU-12 tuner that I bought 20 years ago for about $45--with a copy of Newman’s tuning chart taped inside the cover.
What looks to me to be the same tuner is now called Boss TU-12H, and it still costs just $45!
However, any chromatic electronic tuner that displays both Hz and cents should work fine.
I hope this is helpful.
-Dave |
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Johan Forsman
From:
Sweden
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Posted 18 Jul 2016 12:17 am
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With regards to the question of tuning with tuner or by ear...my two cents: I've heard it said (written) many times on here that if you cannot tune by ear how are you going to be able to play in tune. I agree to some extent that if you're not able to hear when something is out of tune it will be hard to correct any sour notes (while playing) and correct them, and thus learn to play in tune.
On the other hand I think for a beginner (as myself) there are so many things to learn so if I can get going with playing with a guitar that is in tune (tuned by machine) rather than spending hours doing it by ear I'll go for that. It's not like tuning is the most fun part, even though it is not boring at all 
I appreciate the importance of training my ears to hear when in or out of tune so every now and then I de-tune the guitar and try to tune it by ear, yet to get it as good as with my Peterson tuner though.
My goal is to be able to tune it up by ear, not that it will be faster but for times when the tuner is misplaced or whatever. I have a very hard time believing that it actually CAN be faster than using a tuner with programmed offsets that work for your guitar. Except for adjusting particular strings in between songs, e.g.. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Jul 2016 4:56 am
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| Johan Forsman wrote: |
| My goal is to be able to tune it up by ear, not that it will be faster but for times when the tuner is misplaced or whatever. I have a very hard time believing that it actually CAN be faster than using a tuner with programmed offsets that work for your guitar. |
Tuning by ear CAN be faster than tuning to an electronic tuner, but there's no automatic in that one method always is faster than the other(s). For the most part it comes down to what [method] one has gotten used to.
50+ years of tuning - and playing - lots of instruments by ear (from back when there was no electronic tuners), means I only need one reference tone, or one chord, and then tune all else by ear mainly by tuning out beats between notes in a memorised pattern ... ending up with a form for "Compromised Just Intonation tuning" or "Sweetened Tuning" that suits my ear.
Having this "by ear tuning" pre-programmed in a tuner will give me the exact same result every time on all my PSGs, but fact is that to totally satisfy my ears I would still almost automatically adjust tuning of each of my PSGs a little by ear. Reason being that my PSG are not behaving identically - bodydrop, string age, etc. is not the same - and neither is my mood and playing-mode from day to day. As no electronic tuner can hold all these variables in pre-programmed, I find it so much easier, and quicker, to "just" fall back on experience and tune all but one base-note by ear. As a result I also keep up my tune-by-ear training without having to really focus on doing so.
As it probably took me more than a decade (back in the days) to figure out exactly how and why various tuning methods worked and/or didn't work for various instruments and settings, I'm just happy that my ears (mind) could figure it out well enough to get my instrument in tune every time, without me knowing about and understanding the details behind it all until much later.
Good thing everything related to "tone relationships" are under the laws of nature, and that those laws cannot be changed by man. Means my ears can keep on doing what they have always done - discriminate - and get it about right.
However, for the untrained ear a good electronic tuner is probably the quickest and easiest way in, so one can start playing without fear of being too far out of tune. Still have to play by ear though |
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Johan Forsman
From:
Sweden
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Posted 18 Jul 2016 6:15 am
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| A few good points Georg, I guess the wheather, strings, anything really plays a part so learning to tune by ear is probably better. And I am a believer in that it would make me more able to play in tune |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 18 Jul 2016 7:54 am
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| What George Sortun said. Right on. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2016 8:47 am
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My vote goes to the tuning system on the Buddy Emmons site. It sounds harmonious, is easy to use, and works for guitars that have substantial cab drop and those that don't. There are a few note combinations to avoid.
I use the Petersen Strobe. But I have not had good luck with its stock presets for PSG. I read the cents off the tuner to set my modifiers and open strings.
Because we tune by ear as we play, players find a system that work for them and tend to stay with it. To each their own.
John |
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