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Topic: 'No-serial-number' question for Rickenbacher B6/7/8 experts |
Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2016 2:13 am |
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Gentlemen and Ladies,
Does anyone know why a few Rickenbacher Bakelites (B6, 7 & 8 ) do not have serial numbers stamped into the end-tip of their headstock? I've personally seen 2 that didn't, and read on the SGF about others without SNs. I am working on one now without a SN, so a good time to ask the SGF before I scratch a hole in my head. It seems there were very few without SNs. I have some guesses why no SNs occasionally occured, but I don't want to bias anyone's knowledge or guesses as to why no SNs. I will add my 2 cents later.
Anyone know ....or got any reasonably founded guesses?
Thank You and Very Best Wishes to all,
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 26 Jun 2016 3:35 am
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Could it be that the necks were replaced? Wasn't one of the selling points for Bakelite Ricks, both SPANISH and Hawaiian, that replacement necks would be available and could be easily replaced?
Just a reasonably unfounded guess! |
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Roy McKinney
From:
Ontario, OR
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Posted 26 Jun 2016 6:27 am
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Here is mine without a serial number.
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2016 2:46 pm
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| Quote: |
Could it be that the necks were replaced? Wasn't one of the selling points for Bakelite Ricks, both SPANISH and Hawaiian, that replacement necks would be available and could be easily replaced?
Just a reasonably unfounded guess! |
Cartwright,
Thank You for your SWAG. That has been one of my 'reasonably unfounded guesses' as well (among several other SWAGs); Although a "selling point" is new to me, but makes sense, especially during the pre-war / brittle bakelite period. From what I've gathered: The pre-war / pre-mid-1940 necks were vertically thinner and made from a more-brittle bakelite formula prone to breaking, snapping, shattering, chipping, etc. In 1940 a stronger bakelite formula was incorporated, and a new vertically thicker and invisibly reinforced neck design was incorporated; Those thicker necks had no neck heel that pre-wars had. So I had previously SWAG'ed that necks missing serial numbers were replacement necks before mid-1940; But Roy's posting shows a post-war neck without SN on a war-time body. Both of the two necks I've seen without serial numbers were on B6s that dated to 1940 (if all parts were original), and the only one I remember seeing and dating on the SGF was also pre-war (again 1940 if I remember correctly); Which has made me scratch my head about the year 1940. I think it's generally accepted that during the early pre-war / war-time transition year (1940) and the war-time / post-war transition year (1945), previous version parts could wind up on the next version runs, ...so not unusual to see a pre-war neck on a 1940 war-time version, ...or like in Roy's photo, a war-time or post-war neck (T-logo)on a war-time body (big shoe, strings thru body, black UFO knobs on treble bout); that neck could also have been replaced later in the post-war period. I have also seen a few T-logo badges spelled RickenbacHer on early 1946 Ric bakelites, ...and have read that is not uncommon.
The mystery continues, but maybe the discussion will comb info and ideas and get closer to why no SNs on a few(?) bakelite necks.
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus
Last edited by Denny Turner on 2 Jul 2016 3:56 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2016 12:26 am
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| I have a long scale Frypan with no serial number. I have a buddy who worked for quite a while in the Rickenbacker factory. He thinks my guitar might have been a prototype that an employee took home. It also has a very unusual engraving. I'll try and take some pics tomorrow. |
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John Dahms
From:
Perkasie, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2016 4:50 am
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There may be something in the details and features that will help nail down an answer for you.
Rickenbacher must have at times let instruments out without serializing them and there may be more than one reason. It could be a repair as mentioned. Do all the specs seem to be from the same era or is there a mixture of neck shape, body bevel details etc. that don't seem to be the right time frame for the other features (tuner design, metal or plastic plates, etc.).
It may be a one-off for some reason.
I have an eight string Silver Hawaian with features clearly from 1937 and no serial number when there is believed to be no eight string S.H. until about 1940 and they had 1940 specs when released.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps us alert and interested in the history and instruments of the past.
_________________
Time flies like an eagle
Fruit flies like a banana. |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2016 5:34 pm
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| Quote: |
| Rickenbacher must have at times let instruments out without serializing them and there may be more than one reason. It could be a repair as mentioned. Do all the specs seem to be from the same era or is there a mixture of neck shape, body bevel details etc. that don't seem to be the right time frame for the other features (tuner design, metal or plastic plates, etc.). |
Thank You for the knowledgeable and thoughtful info.
What you said has been some of my SWAG suspicions too (with no definitive evidence and thus my posting / questioning). At first I thought the B6 I am analyzing to work on, was assembled over the years from hodge-podge mixed parts including what I suspected to be a replacement neck, ... the steel has had high maintenance over it's history, evidenced by signs of a hard but loved life: Non-original pots of the late 1970s / early 1980s (foreign pots with no EIA numbers), 4 white-painted-metal and 1 plastic body cavity covers, and some amateur or careless mistakes made in it's maintenance, ...noteably well-used rash and spilled drinks "patina", and several shattered-out cover-plate screw hole bosses in the body "shade-tree fixed" with generous blobs of what looks like old / early plastic wood putty mashed around the bosses; And I've recently "discovered" (from a previous owner) that the 1 plastic cover plate was a replacement because the original metal plate was lost during a period that it's upper bass-bout cavity was left open and used to place bar and picks during breaks between gig-sets and used as an ashtray when playing, and the cavity's outer wall afforded a firm-grip handle to carry the steel around (demonstrated to me by that previous owner)! Without a serial number, and by clear signs of the steels rough life and high maintenance, ...I initially suspected that the neck was a replacement neck; But then looking deeper over the last several months, I realized that all the parts and features (including ones you mentioned) fit year 1940, the transition year from pre-war to war-time features, and; Thicker & reinforced necks were incorporated in 1940. Now I wonder if the serial numbering machine was rejigged for the new thicker necks, while some un-numbered thinner pre-war necks were used until that supply ran out. The fact that all 3 examples of no-serial number Bakelite necks I've encountered (except Roy's posted above) were the thinner pre-war necks on 'B's that had 1940 features, and; Doing some searching on the SGF last night, when year dates were mentioned for Rick 'B's without serial numbers, 1940 or war-period (no year stated) was by far mentioned most, ...lending to more suspicion about the year 1940 runs, and the possibility of new jigging for the new necks leaving the surplus of pre-war necks without serial numbers while that limited supply & time lasted (not past 1940 ?).
But Roy's war-time or post-war / no serial number neck is also suggestive of Rickenbacher / Rickenbacker systematicly holding some un-numbered necks aside for replacement necks. But it has also occured to me that serial numbers might not have been applied until just before a neck was ready to be bolted-on on the assembly line (or after a 'B' was successfully assembled?) making un-numbered replacement necks readily available in the assembly line parts bin?
I am also interested in trying to find more-definitive or for-sure evidence because my 15 or-so years acquiring Rick Bakelite information has not provided definitive answers to no-serial-number necks; Leading me to suspect that the question is an unknown blank in Rick Bakelites history that a discussion might fill.
As Flip Wilson would say, "where's 'Da Shadow' when we need him"? I suspect and hope he will show up!
Very Best Wishes to All,
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus
Last edited by Denny Turner on 28 Jun 2016 4:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Jun 2016 10:55 pm
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Here are some pics of my serial number-less Frypan. It looks like maybe they put a weld spot on the headstock to say "prototype not for sale". Anyone seen an engraving like this? The knobs are not original and I'm not sure if it originally had both volume and tone or if one control was added later. Note the plugged hole as if they were working with where to put the jack.
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2016 2:42 pm
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Matthew,
Your frying pan looks good and well built, and looks like it sounds good and plays well. But after considerable work studying and researching to try to identify your frying pan to try to provide useful info towards your "questions", ...all I can come up with is pure guesses / conjecture that doesn't seem to serve any purpose to answer the "questions" you presented / asked. I am not a frying pan expert by any means; But the SGF does have members who are. If your frying pan was mine (and I wish it was) I would put it in a new / different discussion and title the posting exactly: "What is this unusual "RICKENBACKER" frying pan?" ...to see what the experts say.
Very Best Wishes,
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2016 4:05 pm
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The "Script" frypans are the oldest ... Most had the very thick horseshoes with a completely different bobbin and mounting schemes ...
The only ones I know of are all A25s ...
They are quite rare and valuable ...
On a side note, the big horseshoes that I've remagged are not very strong when fully charged ... They probably found a better steel vender that incorporated cobalt in the alloy ... Eliminating the need for those thick magnets with their 1" air-gap ...
Rumors have circulated about solid necks in early A25 ... But I have never seen one in person ...
Hope that helps ...
PS. As for the serial numbers on Rickys ... I've never seen any post war B6s, etc with serial numbers ...
And as for the "reinforced" neck ... That's urban legend stuff ... I've had lots of broken necks come through here ... Prewar with cutaway, prewar without the cutaway ( thicker ) and post war thickers ... None ever had any type reinforcing rod, etc ...
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2016 1:55 am
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Thank You, Rick. I haven't been able to come around the SGF very much in quite awhile. It's great to see you still around and kicking. I hope and trust you and the Family are doing reasonably well; You're wonderfully blessed.
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| Quote: |
| The "Script" frypans are the oldest ... Most had the very thick horseshoes with a completely different bobbin and mounting schemes ... The only ones I know of are all A25s ... They are quite rare and valuable ... |
Photos of 'Electro' scripted headstock; A25; ca. 1932:
(Metal logo badges used on headstock from ca. 1933 onward).
Pre-war headstock logo badge ca. 1933 onward:
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| Quote: |
| PS. As for the serial numbers on Rickys ... I've never seen any post war B6s, etc with serial numbers ... |
That adds good info, ...and some good evidence that Roy's neck might be a post-war (can't see spelling on his 'T' logo) on a war-time body assembly.
Maybe Roy can post a legible close-up photo of his headstock 'T' logo badge, ...to see if it's war-time or post-war spelling.
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| Quote: |
| And as for the "reinforced" neck ... That's urban legend stuff ... I've had lots of broken necks come through here ... Prewar with cutaway, prewar without the cutaway ( thicker ) and post war thickers ... None ever had any type reinforcing rod, etc ... |
I think I might have found one of the originations of that urban legend: Scroll down to page 31 of Richard Smith's book 'History of Rickenbacker Guitars', ...and look just above the photo of Jerry Byrd's head.
[Editing my scattered jibber-jabber from last night]:
While we're on the subject, re: 'INVISIBLY REINFORCED' BAKELITE NECKS:
I've never personally seen a snapped / broken 'B' neck from war-time & post-war periods of the thicker / stronger / reinforced necks, ...to be able to see inside the bakelite. But I've seen other folks' repairs on all 3 periods necks. It's good that you have seen inside and told us there's nothing inside reinforcing those stronger necks other than additional bakelite. I've also read that a stronger bakelite chemical formula was used by Ric about the time the stronger necks came into being.
I've read several mentions over the years of the thicker war-time (and thereafter) necks having 'invisible reinforcement'. So where did those mentions come from?: I'm SWAG'ing: I wonder if those mentions of 'invisible reinforcement' might have been passed along from some researchers / writers to other folks, originally meaning that the taller 3 spars on the back of the newer (war-time) 'reinforced' necks provided an "invisible" (ie. not unsightly) reinforcement of the previous thinner & weaker pre-war necks that were prone to break.
For readers that might not know, ...pre-war refers to prior to 1940, ...war-time 1940 through 1945, ...and post-war 1946 onward, ...with overlapping transition periods when some parts from one period often appeared on the next period until the older parts ran out. For year 1940 Rickenbacher introduced a new stronger neck made with the previous 3 spars on the back of the neck made taller; The bottom edges of the new spars ran from the back of the neck wrist to the rear end of the neck straddling what used to be the neck heel .... creating a reinforcement most folks wouldn't notice without close scrunity ("invisible"?):
Thinner pre-war necks' spars and neck heel (pre-1940 & some in early 1940 transition):
Thicker war-time necks' spars, & showing them straddling the neck heel (Introduced 1940, & continued onward):
(ca. 1945 the headstock's small logo badge shown here changed to the much larger T-logo badge, first with spelling RickenbacHer, then spelling changed to RickenbacKer in 1946. Some 'H' spelled T-logo badges were put on early 1946 "transition" bakelites).
An early 1946 T-logo badge still spelled RickenbacHer:
Still SWAG'ing here folks: Although misinterpretation of 'invisible reinforcement' has become "urban legend" that Rick A. reported, ...it might also make some sense for Rickenbacher (Ric) to have somehow promoted an "invisible" (not unsightly) neck reinforcement, since a number of us have seen some really archaic & ugly Ric Bakelite neck repairs over the years, and I'd imagine Ric Reps did too. ~~~ One pre-war B6 I saw closely in 2009 (still being played at that time by a rather famous Hawaiian Steeler who susequently gave it to a young up and coming Hawaiian Steeler) had a repaired broken neck (snapped into) bolted back together by 2 visible metal plates in the neck-back valleys, secured by 2 visible & sizeable screws on each plate straddling the break, glue applied in the break, and a strip of 3/4"-wide galanized perforated metal strap aka 'plumbers tape' screwed onto the back of the headstock and the other end screwed onto the body aft of the neck, and the fretboard taking a few degrees sharp incline at the break, (and still dearly loved and sounding great to this day)!!! Rickenbacher maybe saying 'invisible reinforcement' might have been meaningful Public Relations (PR) to them at an important time (mid-1940s), to distinguish between their new / stronger neck and the archaic / ugly repairs floating around; It was during the very big Hawaiian Music craze and the escalation of professional Steelers and their own PR well under way by 1940; And some of the chiefs on the several different early Rickenbacher teams have been reported to have been sensitive to potentially negative PR. ............ FWIMBW.
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Very Best Wishes,
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus
Last edited by Denny Turner on 2 Jul 2016 5:37 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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