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Topic: 440 or 442? |
Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2016 5:57 pm |
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| I always have tuned my "E" strings at "440". I always have wondered how "442" works with the rest of the band in "440". Interests me. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Jun 2016 7:01 pm
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I find them a little "biting." I tune my Es to straight up
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2016 10:40 pm
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Most people tune their A notes to the 440 Hz reference and tune the E's to match with the pedals down. When you release the pedals, the E strings raise slightly due to cabinet drop. That's where the "tune E's to 442" comes from.
As for how it works with the rest of the band, it's all in your bar placement. You have to zero in on the correct intonation with your ears.
FWIW, I play a marimba that's tuned to A=442 Hz, and it sounds fine with guitars that tune to A=440 Hz. The difference is very small.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2016 10:56 pm Swore By 442.....But.
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| When I bought my Emmons LGII in '05, I tuned 442 be cause the guy I bought it from, used the Jeff Newman tuning chart. It worked fine for me, until a couple of yrs. ago I decided to change to 440 on a whim. I feel like I'm playing in tune either way. My old ears can't hear like they used to, it could be the Marshall Stack I played guitar thru for yrs. Anyway, I'll probably stick with 440, it doesn't seem to matter in a band setting....Like old Mike Barber,(Tight End for the old Houston Oilers) used to say, "Whatever Cranks Your Tractor". |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 12:45 am
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I tune to at least 441 ,mostly 442. Then touch up by ear.
That is what I picked up from one or two of our master players today.
TRUE story. I was at a Jeff seminar once and he had the whole group of us playing some smooth phrases, in A. I decided to grab the open A chord at the zero fret with AB peds in. Jeff in his exquisite humor yelled at me and said don't do that , you are out of tune. I simple replied, I am tuned to 442. Again with his extreme wit, Jeff responded. "never mind ".
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 2:28 am
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| I was a 440 holdout for many years. I even developed my own tuning chart based on the Newman chart at 440. I had tried the 442.5 Newman and it never sounded right. However, when I got a new Peterson StoboPlus HD tuner I again tried the pre programmed Newman at 442.5 and it worked. I've used that ever since. Open I'm "in tune" with the rest of the band. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 6:27 am
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The needle should hover over your straight-up E-note as you go on/off the AB pedals.
Also, daisy-chain together all the tuners your band is using, and make sure they are calibrated to each other. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 7:57 am
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| whatever...i tune at least 441. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 8:00 am
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| Pedals up or down? |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 8:01 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
The needle should hover over your straight-up E-note as you go on/off the AB pedals.
Also, daisy-chain together all the tuners your band is using, and make sure they are calibrated to each other. |
Yikes! 
h |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 8:01 am
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| I use common cents. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 8:07 am
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If you tune String-4-E to 441 with pedals up, it's pretty common that you will be at 339 with pedals down.
I call this "hovering" over 440.
Some will gasp. 
442 or 442.5 are too sharp for the groups I play with. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 8:52 am
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it's not that serious.
playing in tune with your band is. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 9:08 am
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For what it's worth, I tune my roots and fifths (E and B) 5 cents sharp, and my thirds (G#) 5 cents flat. The average of the three offsets is 0. That's why it sounds in tune with the band.
I don't know how that relates to "440". Here are Jeff Newman's charts in cents: steelguitarforum.com/b0b/jefftune.html. His numbers are more granular than mine. I can't see 2 cents difference (or 440.5 Hz) on my tuner.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 11:15 am
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I find 440 works OK most of the time, but if there's a keyboard in the band, I need to go 442, especially my C6th neck.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 9:38 pm
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| 442 works a lot better for me. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Jun 2016 9:49 pm
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I usually tune my Es to 330. Sometimes 331.5
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg SΓΈrtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 12:35 am
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Lane, I don't think we're expected to use real frequencies, but since you did so will I
On "extended E" I tune E(4) a little sharp to 330.3Hz (ET=329.6Hz), E(3) a little sharp to 165.2Hz (ET=164.8Hz), and E(2) a hair flat to 82.3Hz (ET=82.4Hz).
That is tuned with a frequency counter on a PSG with A(4) tuned to 439.5Hz (ET=440Hz), and where I don't have to take bodydrop into account since there isn't any.
On my other PSGs I tune the A(4) to 440Hz (using a tuning fork and only occasionally checking with a frequency counter) with no other pedals/levers activated, and compromise on the rest by ear as the bodydrop dictates to get a functioning JI tuning. The Es always end up a little sharp on E9 ... 0.5 to 1.5Hz. |
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Jamie Mitchell
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 6:53 am
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i tune Es to 442.
my take on it is that you are correcting/adjusting for several issues at once with 442.
i tune just.
that puts your open minor chords in the 14-16 cents flat ballpark. add cabinet drop to that, and that's pretty damn flat. enough to make those open chords much less use-able.
442 is 7, 8 cents sharp. that's putting the roots of your minor chords much closer to on the grid...
if i'm playing slide, or lap steel, tuned just, i tune E's to 440. i just don't use that G# as a root.
i want that option on pedal.
so, 442 it is!
j |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 10:17 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| I usually tune my Es to 330. Sometimes 331.5 |
I have a 329.6 Hz tuning fork around here somewhere. You can get this tuner from Amazon:
I know this sounds confusing to some. Steel players were early adopters of electronic tuners. Those early tuners had 440 Hz markings for calibration. Modern pop music is tuned to the A=440 Hz standard. Classical orchestras sometimes tune to a different standard to play old music, or just for the hell of it. The designers of those early tuners were thinking of them, not us.
Since there weren't cents markings on the first electronic tuners, steel players tuned individual strings to the calibration scale. So now we have people saying "I tune my E to 442" which makes little sense as 442 Hz is an A note. But we do it anyway. 
Hz is a measurement of sound waves per second. If A is 440 Hz, then E will be 330 Hz in just intonation, 329.6 Hz in equal temperament. That's math. If you make a sound at 440 Hz (440 waves per second), it's an A note. Period.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 10:45 am
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As long as guitar is in tune with its self, I think it makes little difference whether it's 440, 442 or even 438. The art of it is to play in tune with the band. Can any of you during a passage with a bar hit it exactly on 440 at any given fret? I sure can't but vibrato and proper technique and good pitch(in your hearing I mean) it will sound in tune.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 11:53 am
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Henry, the center matters if you're gonna borrow from Moon (and lots of others, including Buddy), using open strings, since they'd have to be consonant with the rest of the band.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 12:55 pm
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Yes, this is true Lane
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2016 1:22 pm
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The Pedal Steel is the most likely instrument to make the whole band sound of tune, so I'm guessing it is pretty important, with so many newbs coming onboard and all.
I think the thing about 440 or 442.5 or whatever has alot to do with Parallax Error, which probably has to do with how tall you are.... Unless you are looking straight down on the bar/fret at all times, which is what it looks like Paul Franklin does alot.
Concerning making sure the tuners are all calibrated... From a recent thread:
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| Second, during soundcheck, we were having SERIOUS tuning problems. I kept checking and knew I was in, and saw him checking his guitar and he sounded in......but it was bloody awful playing together. I've been practicing steel along with tracks and have a good ear (I've played slide guitar and fretless bass for years), so I didn't think my intonation was THAT off.....but I started getting real discouraged and blaming myself. Felt like everyone was staring at me, wondering what my problem was. Almost gave up on playing steel for the gig. After soundcheck, on a whim, I checked his guitar against my strobe tuner app, and it turns out he was tuned almost +20 cents sharp!! Must've accidentally screwed up the calibration on his tuner. Oy. Crisis averted. |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 11 Jun 2016 5:04 pm
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I've had the best luck playing with Piano, Accordion, Harmonica, or any "Fixed" reed type instrument at A 442. Wish Roy Rosetta could give us his experiences from a keyboard players point of view. Gimme an "E"  |
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