| Author |
Topic: C pedal on lever? |
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 1:37 am |
|
Has anyone tried putting the C pedal on the vertical or other lever?
In pedal down licks, I often want to raise the 4th string to E to F#, as a bend, and not by using the 1st string. Sometimes I right foot it.
When sliding minor chord inversions, the move from A pedal to BC pedals could be made easier by not moving your foot, but hitting B and the vertical or other lever.
Placing the B to Bb lower on a pedal next to your A enables you to play the minor chords with descending bass lines.
I noticed Buck's steel/guitarist has the E to F# raise on LKR. If that is only a string 4 raise, it becomes redundant with the C when AB are engaged.
Why not move your C to a lever you can hit with AB, or B engaged?
John |
|
|
 |
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 May 2016 2:39 am
|
|
| I have had the E to F# raise (both E strings w/half-stop) on my regular E to F raise lever since back in -88, and use it all the time. Have kept the C-pedal but hardly ever use it. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 8 May 2016 3:40 am
|
|
Moon put it on his rightmost pedal, so he could hit it with the other foot.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 8 May 2016 4:49 am
|
|
I consider (for my personal playing, YMMV etc etc) BC to be an important voicing and I cannot make it work to my satisfaction on a lever, which lacks the muscle or mechanical speed to get it done, vs. a pedal.
AND I really like the idea of E>F# being smoothly accessed with AB down.
So I added a lever and have that 4th string change on LKL2 (front). I do not consider it redundant because I like it and use it all the time.
To help justify the extra lever (in my own mind) I added 10th string B>C# to the lever as an unrelated change for a couple of different purposes.
Everybody's mileage varies. |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 6:29 am BC to Left Vertical
|
|
I'm moving my BC pedals to my Left Knee Vertical. I've had it there before on another Sierra with my personally designed knee lever. When I'm pressing A & B & pulling the C's (strings four & string eight), it is very simple with this lever. AND it is quick. Less than 1/2 inch travel (adjustable)
I'm looking to find something else to do with the C Pedal.
 |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 7:18 am
|
|
| Jon Light wrote: |
I consider (for my personal playing, YMMV etc etc) BC to be an important voicing and I cannot make it work to my satisfaction on a lever, which lacks the muscle or mechanical speed to get it done, vs. a pedal.
AND I really like the idea of E>F# being smoothly accessed with AB down.
So I added a lever and have that 4th string change on LKL2 (front). I do not consider it redundant because I like it and use it all the time.
|
I felt the same way, and did the same thing. But after a while I decided that I didn't like the extra knee lever and took it off. It was staggered on an RKL, which created a problem with the volume pedal. I might have kept it if it had been on the left knee as Jon's is.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 7:40 am
|
|
For many years I raised the high E to F# on my vertical lever, and I still have that change on my 8-string D6th (where it's D to E). The only downside is that you can't really get that fast Ralph Mooney pedal bounce on a knee lever. For a while I had both (the C pedal and the knee lever), using the pedal for fast songs and the knee lever for everything else.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 10:37 am
|
|
I, too, have wanted the E to F# by itself. I have tried it first on LKV, but was not easily done when using it with the A & F changes. So then moved it to RKR. As Mr b0b mentioned, I noticed a lack of speed on the lever change. I would like to move it to the rightmost pedal, when I get the parts. It is nice to slide from IV (with the A & B pedals) to ii(m) in one action as opposed to lifting off from AB to BC.
.............Pat |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 8 May 2016 10:39 am
|
|
For many years I raised E to F# on a lever. But as someone said, you can't get the quick licks that you can with the C pedal. I would never, ever think of taking C pedal, and don't recommend it to anyone. Learn how to use it. It's there for a reason. Using a lever to get the F# along with the A pedal doesn't work the same. Just not fast enough. The E to F# is a cool change, but probably one the last choices that I would make if I didn't have extra, unused levers.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 8 May 2016 10:52 am
|
|
| Quote: |
Placing the B to Bb lower on a pedal next to your A enables you to play the minor chords with descending bass lines.
I noticed Buck's steel/guitarist has the E to F# raise on LKR. If that is only a string 4 raise, it becomes redundant with the C when AB are engaged.
Why not move your C to a lever you can hit with AB, or B engaged? |
Buck Owens? He had several players. Which one are you talking about.
I like the Bb on a pedal next to my A pedal too, but still rarely use it.
You would be surprised at how many of the licks that people love, and used on many, many records, are done with the C pedal. I don't think a lever and A pedal would work for those. The C pedal is really not redundant. Just different. I say leave it on and learn how to use it. I realize that it is tough to go from A&B to C quickly, but it can be done. And if you are playing some where you need to go from A&B and raise string 4, you can always use strings 4 & 5 and let off the A pedal slowly as you go up 2 frets, giving you the 4 string raise up a hole step, and with the A peal released, you have the C# on 5.
Just my opinions. To each their own. Do what you think will better serve your style of playing.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 9:49 pm
|
|
I see many of you have this or had it at one time.
These are all good ideas.
Georg, the most logical place for the E to F# raise is in the F lever. Do you ever have to fish for the half stop F? Do you feel it is fast enough to F# when in AB licks?
bOb, and Charley, I think I'd still want to have both. There some BC rocking moves that I'd miss.
Here is a YT video of Buck doing Truck Driving Man. I belive the guitarist/steeler is named Christianson. The solo starts at 1:14 and a front shot of his knee move occurs at 1:30 and the end. But with the great camera work clearly he is not grabbing string #1 or sliding up 2 frets to grab the notes on open strings 4 and 5.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0nMvKxDFMuo
This may be a decision based on priorities. We'd all probably like to have a E to F# pull on a lever, but how many levers do you have available, and which moves are most important to you, will be the deciding factor.
Nice to know other people have had the same idea.
John |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 9 May 2016 12:56 am
|
|
John, that's a very relevant question. The use of that lever with half-stop is logical - which is why I put it there and feel perfectly comfortable with it on the one PSG I have it on. Keeping a firm, half-note stop on that lever is a must - I don't like to feel or fish for exact notes while playing.
My "-88 solution" - on my old Dekley S10 - uses hinged half-stops for both raise and lower levers on left knee for "E" strings - giving me raise: E>F>#F, and lower: E>#D>D, on those two levers. These half-stop hinges are kept in place by gravity alone, and both hinges are moved out of the way by lifting a long, linear-moving, vertical lever a few millimeter.
This "-88" solution is ergonomically tailored to me, and works as precise and fast as I want. No fishing/feeling for that half-stop - it is as solid as the regular stop was, and no slow-down, no "knee" to overcome or increase in resistance when going for full-note raise or lower. Replicating that exact solution on another PSG has turned out not to be easy though, so I'm forced to redesign.
None of the regular, spring-loaded, half-stop solutions on-the-market that I have tried out are quite good enough for changes I use all the time. I have yet to come up with the perfect half/full-note "switching" to put into my latest PSG-convertion - a project I started on last December. |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 9 May 2016 8:02 am
|
|
| John Goux wrote: |
This may be a decision based on priorities. We'd all probably like to have a E to F# pull on a lever, but how many levers do you have available, and which moves are most important to you, will be the deciding factor.
|
For me, there are at least 8 or 10 pulls that I would rather have on a lever. Also I agree that the old hillbilly C pedal sound requires a fast pedal move that a lever can't do.
My choice is not a real C pedal, but instead a pedal that raises just string 4 (and BTW lowers string 12 from E to D). For the 3 string C pedal sound I use both feet. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 9 May 2016 10:05 am
|
|
I just watched the Buck Owens Video. That's Terry Christopherson.(sp)
I see him hitting the left knee lever, but can't make out any C pedal lick there.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 9 May 2016 10:52 am
|
|
| John Goux wrote: |
the most logical place for the E to F# raise is in the F lever. Do you ever have to fish for the half stop F? |
I had a chance to play a guitar with this setup, and I was not able to accurately hit the half stops so the Fs were in tune.
Bear in mind that I don't like half stops anyway. The guy who owns the guitar does not have a problem.
Try it, and see if you like it. If it works for you, cool. If not, that's cool too.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 11 May 2016 5:43 am
|
|
On my Justice U-10, yes not a 12 string, I have the 4 string E to F# on a vertical. Fred was gracious and insightful to fit 5 pedals and 6 knee levers on a single 10 body so it made sense to eliminate the C pedal in favor of the verticl lever. This may not be everyone but it works effectively for my needs.
I have been meaning to post some pics on this guitar and hope to so soon. |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 15 May 2016 8:09 am Vertical knee lever pics
|
|
| Len... please post your pictures of your LK vertical lever |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 20 May 2016 8:01 am adding some pedals & levers
|
|
at present, I have a Sierra 3/3. I want to add another floor pedal, to have 4 pedals. Why... I don't know, maybe you guys can help out.
1st things 1st. My C Pedal is going to my LKV, my LKL lowers my Es to Eb, my LKR raises my Es to F.
My RKL lowers 2 & 9
C is empty, 4 is empty & my RKR is empty
Now ... what to do what what is left. Got any ideas... |
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 23 May 2016 6:18 pm
|
|
Hi Charley. You have 3 open spots. Here are some popular choices. You can prioritize them and choose what you think is most important.
F# to G# with half stop, on 1 and 7(optional) with D# to E on 2 optional.
B to Bb on 5 and 10(opt)
G# to F# on 6
G# to Gnat
G# to F# with B to A Str 5
B to D
G# to Bb
The list goes on but these are useful. J |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 23 May 2016 8:59 pm
|
|
IMHO you should leave the C pedal intact,and either add a zero pedal which would lower your G# strings to G, or put in the Franklin pedal in slot 4.
A lot of people lower the 5th string from B to Bb on a vertical. I believe this is a mistake. If you want the B to Bb change, it should be on a regular knee lever. However some folks would rather use the 4th knee lever lower the 6th string, and others prefer to raise string 1 a whole step to G# and string 2 a half step to E.
Perhaps the best thing to do is learn how to change the undercarriage and try out all these different options, and see which one you prefer.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
John Goux
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 23 May 2016 9:51 pm
|
|
Hi Mike. Why do you think B to Bb on a vertical is a mistake? It seems to be the most common use of the vertical.
J |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 24 May 2016 3:22 am
|
|
John, the B to Bb is perhaps the subtlest and most mysterious and least understood of all changes. Many players see it as only useful for making the pedals down A chord position into a minor chord. But the change has many more uses than that. And the only way to find them is to experiment with the change in a wide variety of circumstances.
Vertical knee levers are hard to use. Putting the B-Bb change there means that the player will be discouraged from exploring the change and finding its many uses.
Moreover, it easiest to use the vertical if you have some leverage from pressing down on a pedal. Many times the B-Bb is played with the pedals up.
In my opinion, the vertical should raise the 2 F# strings to G natural. That change is almost always used in conjunction with the B pedal, which gives you the leverage, and the change increases the steel’s chord and scale vocabulary.
Some folks think it’s better to use the 4th knee lever to lower the 6th string. I think it’s better to use it to lower the 5th. It’s one of those subjective things where everybody has a different opinion.
BTW, my B-Bb is on the infamous wrist lever.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 24 May 2016 6:40 am C Pedal to the vertical
|
|
Hi folks... I have already had my C Pedal moved to the vertical I designed, many moons ago, on another Pedal Steel. I removed the lever, before I sold it. Now, I'm gonna add it to "my new to me" Sierra S10, because it is real easy to use with the pedals down or up & the movement is the same all across the lever... that is my choice.
So.... I have an empty C Pedal on the left of my B Pedal, a new 4th Pedal that is empty (on the right of my A Pedal) & a new RKR lever to bring my Steel up to a 4/5 configuration.
SO.... is there another change to use with the B Pedal that raises the G# to the A (strings 3 & 6)..? I.E. using the A pedal + the 0 pedal = ?
How about the same kind of situation with the A Pedal that raises the B to C..? Is there some change to use with that pedal...?
Got any idea to assist me in getting all this working..?
There has to be some "real trick" moves that one can use..
or should I not worry with adding the 4 Pedal..????
Last edited by Charley Bond on 25 May 2016 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 24 May 2016 8:30 am Re: C pedal on lever?
|
|
| John Goux wrote: |
Has anyone tried putting the C pedal on the vertical or other lever?...
Placing the B to Bb lower on a pedal next to your A enables you to play the minor chords with descending bass lines...Why not move your C to a lever you can hit with AB, or B engaged?
John |
I can't see where I'd gain anything with an E-F# on a lever.
As others have said, knees can't move as fast as feet, so the C-pedal is a must for quick movements. If you want the E to F# move with pedals down, you can do that easily with 2,3,&4 strings (provided you're lowering the 2nd a whole tone with a lever). And as far as the descending bass-line thing, many of us can do that just fine using a half-pedal.  |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 24 May 2016 9:48 am C Pedal to a Lever.
|
|
I understand that you fellows don't see or understand why I would move the C Pedal to my vertical Knee Lever...
REASON # 1... I have 2 legs that have been beaten up badly, in accidents & operations, to the extent that I have problems.
However, for some reason, I can pop my Vertical Up with my pedals up or down a great deal easier that I can rotate my left foot. So that is my chosen direction. I am 73 , so it really doesn't matter whether I can play dead or not. But I would like to enjoy playing "at it" until that day.
I need some assistance in defining what to do with my unused Levers & Pedals. Can anyone help... any ideas..?
Last edited by Charley Bond on 24 May 2016 1:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
