| Author |
Topic: What happens if ... |
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 7 May 2016 8:14 am |
|
What happens If I were to loosen all the spring screws ?
What happens if I over tighten them?
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
 |
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 7 May 2016 8:28 am
|
|
Ideally, you want them just tight enough to do their job,which is returning lowers to pitch, and holding the lowering scissor to the stop bar. Too loose, and lowers won't return right, and raises will pull the lowering scissor off the bar, so they won't raise to pitch.
If they're too strong/tight, pulling on the lowering scissor will pull the raise scissor off the stop bar, instead of pulling the spring, so you won't lower to pitch.
The all-pull changer is a balancing act between those springs and string tension, mediated by the leverage and the stop bar.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 7 May 2016 9:11 am
|
|
Makes sense, I loosened all of them by 2-turns and had trouble with all my lowers returning to proper pitch at a show last night.
Fortunately I counted the turns so I can re-tension them.
I didn't really understand what they did when I screwed with them. Oh well, I'm a West Virginian and
I have to learn everything the hard way. It's in my blood. 
What I want to do is get my Fessy to have a lighter feel on the pedals and levers. Everything works perfectly, just stiffly.
Probably have to change the rod placements on the bell cranks and adjust the stops and retune all the nylons.
Hope I'm not in over my head here.
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks guys,
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 7 May 2016 9:29 am
|
|
If you don't mind longer throws, you can move rods one slot closer to the shaft on the bellcrank, or one hole away from the axle on the changer.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 7 May 2016 9:53 am
|
|
| Theoretically, the tension in the spring plus the mechanical advantage of the scissor mechanism should be equal to the tension in each string, such that in the open resting position the finger sits in equilibrium and has no bias to pull one way or the other. In practical reality this is virtually impossible to gauge, and all sorts of other factors in the pull train, friction, etc. come into play. But as Lane suggests, just tight enough to get a clean solid return on the lowers is optimal so that raises don't become unnecessarily stiff. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 7 May 2016 12:28 pm
|
|
| Ian Worley wrote: |
| Theoretically, the tension in the spring plus the mechanical advantage of the scissor mechanism should be equal to the tension in each string, such that in the open resting position the finger sits in equilibrium and has no bias to pull one way or the other. In practical reality this is virtually impossible to gauge, and all sorts of other factors in the pull train, friction, etc. come into play. But as Lane suggests, just tight enough to get a clean solid return on the lowers is optimal so that raises don't become unnecessarily stiff. |
The only meaningful and true part in your post (above) is in bold.
John Booth:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  |
|
|
|
Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
|
Posted 7 May 2016 3:00 pm
|
|
My two cents, ignoring interaction between raise and lower scissors from friction or gummed up fingers. I've been wrong before...
If lower-return is backed off too much then (a) string won't return to pitch after lowering lever is released, and (b) raise might not get all the way up, due to "following" of lower scissor. With too little lower return tension, the lower scissor will "follow" the raise scissor. Pitch starts increasing, but progress stops despite continued travel of the pedal or lever.
If lower-return is tightened too much, it will cause added resistance, but everything will work properly.
If you want less resistance on the lowering lever, the trade off is longer throw.
Except for "following" behavior, setting of lower-return should have no effect on raise tension or operation. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 7 May 2016 3:49 pm
|
|
Dan, if the return spring is too strong, lowers may not drop all the way.
Because of the way the scissors work, if the spring is too strong, pulling the raise scissor off the stop bar will offer less resistance than stretching the return spring, so the raise scissor starts pulling back sharp.
MSA Classics often run into this.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
|
Posted 7 May 2016 9:50 pm
|
|
Aha! Thus does my knowledge of this mysterious machine grow.
Thanks, Lane. Always happy to learn from a trained professional. |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 8 May 2016 1:59 am
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Bill Ferguson
From:
Milton, FL USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 3:18 am
|
|
John, I would not mess with too much. Take it from experience.
If you want a lighter feel on the pedals, give Jerry Fessenden a call. I am sure he will be glad to walk you through anything.
_________________
AUTHORIZED George L's, Goodrich, Telonics and Peavey Dealer: I have 2 steels and several amps. My current rig of choice is 1993 Emmons LeGrande w/ 108 pups (Jack Strayhorn built for me), Goodrich OMNI Volume Pedal, George L's cables, Goodrich Baby Bloomer and Peavey Nashville 112. Can't get much sweeter. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 8 May 2016 3:38 am
|
|
Richard, if the spring is too strong/tight, won't it pivot on the spring (so that additional pull on the lowering scissor results in the raise scissor moving)?
Or am I not quite understanding the dynamics of what goes on when you try to move the point on which it's now pivoting?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
|
Posted 8 May 2016 4:53 am
|
|
It also appears from Richards drawing, that the closer the lowering rod is positioned to the changer axle, the more advantage an over-tightened spring will have over the raise finger.
_________________
Jerry Jones |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 May 2016 5:01 am
|
|
| It does indeed pivot on the lower-nut when the spring is too tight and holds the lower part of the scissor back, but you can/will see it as if it pivots on the too tight spring as the lower-rod pulls. Two "pivot-points" = same result = reversal to raise. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 May 2016 5:21 am
|
|
The spring is actually pulling on the lower scissor in the wrong place - below the lowering-rods. Ideally the spring should pull in line with, or above, the lower-rod closest to the changer axle, but that isn't very practical (requires more parts) the way these all-pull changers are built.
I have a 5-semitones lower on one of my PSGs, and to make that work flawlessly on that particular instrument I attached an extra rod in line with the spring so "reversal-to-raise" cannot take place - the string can be lowered until it goes dead.
Ask Bent Romnes if it works or not, as he borrowed my solution a while back  |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 8 May 2016 6:26 am
|
|
On one stubborn MSA, I had put a collar on the B pedal pullrod to keep the 6th string raise scissor on the stop bar. I'd rather go to adjustable springs.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2016 2:39 am
|
|
Now that y'all explained the function of these springs I was able to take a few minutes
and find that "balance" of tightness/looseness that brought my lowers back to tune after use.
You guys are great.
Did I say you guys were great?
Thanks,
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 9 May 2016 7:04 pm
|
|
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
the string can be lowered until it goes dead.
Ask Bent Romnes if it works or not, as he borrowed my solution a while back |
Yes it does indeed work. I believe I lowered a wound 6th G# to E or something ridiculous like that. It worked great. Never had a complaint about it.
Only drawback , it's a...what should we call it Georg... a "dedicated lower"?
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 9 May 2016 7:43 pm
|
|
it's best not to readjust anything unless you understand the function.
that is why so many used steels that people
buy are messed up! |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 9 May 2016 8:36 pm
|
|
If there's only one raise on a string, couldn't one put a collar on the raise rod, holding the raise scissor against the stop bar?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
|
Posted 24 May 2016 7:07 pm Spring Tension
|
|
| I backed off my springs to see if my Mullen would pedal easier. Did not help. Put them back where they were. Got a hold of Mike from Mullen Guitars and he sent me a small bracket that mounts ahead of the changer and has tension springs that pull at the upper part of the changer, (like a sho bud) Worked great. Pedals as easy as my Sho Bud now.. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 25 May 2016 2:44 am
|
|
| Bent Romnes wrote: |
| Only drawback , it's a...what should we call it Georg... a "dedicated lower"? |
Well Bent, I call it a "crutch" 
Whatever it is called, it does prove that the lower-return springs are pulling at the wrong point on those all-pull changers.
One solution could be to add a shaft with freewheeling bellcranks behind the changer to hook longer springs up to, and push the lower-scissors back towards the stop-plate via a connection (rod) between those bellcranks and the lower-scissor lined up with the uppermost lower-rod. Then all lowers can go as low as anyone might wish for with no risk of reversal-to-raise, and the lowering action - as felt on pedals/levers - would be very light.
I'm designing that solution into my "keyhead changer" project, but it will work equally well on regular - existing - all-pull changers. |
|
|
|
Tommy Auldridge
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 25 May 2016 3:49 am Try a PUSH / PULL......
|
|
| Try an Emmons push/pull. You'll like it. Designed by Buddy Emmons, and rejected by Shot Jackson. What was he thinking? Tommy...... |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 25 May 2016 4:06 am Re: Try a PUSH / PULL......
|
|
| Tommy Auldridge wrote: |
| Try an Emmons push/pull. You'll like it. Designed by Buddy Emmons, and rejected by Shot Jackson. What was he thinking? Tommy...... |
Hmm, the Emmons Push-Pull was the first design I studied - back in the early -70s - years before I started playing steel. Didn't like it
Then I tried one out a few years ago, to see if maybe playing one would change my mind about Push-Pulls. It didn't 
Testing one did reveal more about why a Push-Pull sounds like it does though, and I can use that... |
|
|
|
