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Topic: What is it about the LDG? |
Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 2 May 2016 7:50 pm |
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I have never really been a fan of the Sho-Bud sound; they always seem to sound harsh & tinney to me, with no bottom or throatiness like an Emmons,Zum, Mullen, etc. I've heard a few players get great sounds out of them; most notably Dickey Overbey, but for the most part they just don't move me. Except...the LDG. Every time I hear an LDG, I know it, and they have prolly the best tone this side of a push-pull. Just listen to Lloyd , or Ricky Davis. Tone to die for. Do they have a different scale length than a D-10, different pickups, or what? I have never EVER heard an LDG sound anything but gorgeous! Anyone know what makes them so special? Or, is it just the player?
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 2 May 2016 8:39 pm
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Hey Rich; I can give you a small insight. Firstly; the LDG was born to production in 1973. Lloyd has the 1st one and I have the 2nd one. Dickey also had one built the first year; as I am the one that set it up for him. Lloyd's is the only one with a longer scale; all the other Sho~bud's have 24" scale. Lloyd did not like the overtones he was getting and it turned out because of the length of string from rollers to tuners(mainly 4th;5th;6th strings) and I believe Duane came up with a slightly shorter Keyhead and therefore Lloyd's scale is now 24 1/2". But here is to me the main clincher in great sound. These first year LDG's followed the D-10 bodies and mechanics that was being built at Sho~bud in 1973 and they were the big body 3/4" maple; round front and Barrel tuners behind two hole pullers; single/single fingers but with a pad on where the back neck would be. And this happened ONLY the 1st year they were in production; because the next year 1974; sho~bud started using nylon tuners and fixing the rod to pullers and having two raises on the fingers that raised twice..yeee haaa. and also that was when the PRO II Custom started getting into production and the body style started changing and etc.....Actually I can give you 10 or so changes of Sho~buds about every year in production; but you don't have enough money to pay me for that info..ha...but really; To me those old big body round front shobud's that had the best sounding fingers in them that are the alum. single/single...and how they were mounted and the key heads then and rollers and etc.....are way out front in sound then any others....My opinion.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 2 May 2016 8:45 pm
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Rich,
I don't believe there was much different in the build of an LDG. There was improved versions as time went on with the same improvements as the other models ShoBud was building. I didn't know the scale was longer, as Ricky states.
Now Lloyd, that's another story. He was and is magical. RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 May 2016 12:47 am
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Discussing the Sho Bud sound can be confusing and misleading...
which era Sho Bud are we talking about ?
I believe the original LDG's were two hole pullers on a D10 body. The Pro I's, II's and III's used the same pull system thru the early to mid 70's. I would argue with the best of us here that each of those instruments didn't sound awesome ! Growl city....
Then, Sho Bud changed the designs to the newer systems which were the 5 hole pullers ( pot metal) and the newer changer design with more up down positions. These are sometimes called the Super Pro systems.
I own a Pro I from this era. As much as I like it for play-ability and action it is NOT to be compared in tone to the earlier two hole puller guitars.
So which Sho Bud are we referring to ?
This Green Pro I, late 70's with the 5 hole pullers...
Sounds nothing like this Pro III with the 2-hole pullers...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 5:03 am
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I've got a '74 LDG and its quite as a mouse.
The knee lever have a very short movement.
Its not a round front but I love the tone
I get.
Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 May 2016 10:06 am
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Sho~Buds are "harsh and tinny"? Now that's funny!  |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 May 2016 12:26 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Sho~Buds are "harsh and tinny"? Now that's funny! |
That had me rolling on the floor too. I never owned an LDG, but had a Professional and a Super-Pro, and neither sounded harsh and tinny to me. But Rich is hearing them that way, which is valid for him.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 May 2016 12:49 pm
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| Ron Pruter wrote: |
Rich,
I don't believe there was much different in the build of an LDG. |
ricky just explained the difference! |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 5 May 2016 1:09 pm
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| Ron Pruter wrote: |
Rich,
I don't believe there was much different in the build of an LDG. There was improved versions as time went on |
There was quite a dramatic difference in the builds from 73 thru the early 80's, not simple little updates, how about the entire changer and pull system was re-designed ! 
The decal and the wood looked glorious but under the hood was a totally different motor !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 1:24 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| Ron Pruter wrote: |
Rich,
I don't believe there was much different in the build of an LDG. |
ricky just explained the difference! |
While the particular players the OP referred to both play early round-front LDG's, it was not clear that his comment/question applied only to first-year LDG's.
I understand Ron P. to mean there was not much difference between the build of LDG's and other models built at the same time. It seems all models of Sho-Buds went through the evolutions in build together. |
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Ronnie Boettcher
From:
Brunswick Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 5:25 pm
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Mine is a 77, and I did make a few mods to suit myself. I love my LDG,
_________________
Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142 |
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Mike Wilkerson
From:
Luther Oklahoma
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Posted 5 May 2016 6:16 pm
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I don't have an LDG but I do have an original big body Pro III D-10 circa Sept 22 1975 2 hole pullers 2 raise single lower thar has "it".... I have had a couple top notch players sit behind it and they loved it.... I love the LDG as well... Slim
_________________
S12 MSA Classic Nashville 400 with fox mods amp 1 volume pedal 1 Lil Izzy and 3 cords |
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Jonathan Shacklock
From:
London, UK
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Posted 7 May 2016 11:24 pm
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I recently bought this Jan 76 LDG, it's been more or less in the case since new. It has some of the older features, large body, gumby key head, wide pedals, teardrop levers, not pot metal, but with the nylon tuners. Has it got "it"? Hard to say. I don't hear the same tone as some of those early 70's round front guitars but it sounds great to me. I'm enjoying getting her out and gigging after all this time.
I'd be interested to know how the pickups changed in that time period (Ricky?), and if you put any of the tone difference down to windings etc.
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 8 May 2016 8:05 am
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| pretty steel! my guess is that it would sound really great had you been playing it for 40 years instead of locking it away. it would have aged properly and you would have improved as a player. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 8 May 2016 9:05 am
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More coffee Chris! Jonathan wrote that he recently purchased the steel, and it would seem January '76 is the manufacture date.
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Mark |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 8 May 2016 9:11 am
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oh sorry.. 
well...i've been ill if that's any excuse.
i'm a little off my game...but i must persevere
in my quest to....uhh...what was it now...? |
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Jonathan Shacklock
From:
London, UK
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Posted 9 May 2016 5:03 am
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Awkward!
Setting aside the sheer embarrassment of that majestic clunker (apology accepted Chris, please get better, seriously), I won't be shedding any tears that my guitar hasn't been "aged properly". YOU might take a Sho Bud with 40 years' playing on it over the same vintage guitar with practically box fresh original mechanics - I know which I prefer. I'll be gigging the heck out of it, aging it in my own good time and improving as a player for many years I hope.
Returning if possible, to the OP, Rich, could it be that the majority of LDG players you've heard are more predisposed towards a sound/tone/playing style that you like (because presumably they too love and appreciate Lloyd "not-harsh-or-tinny" Green, to the degree that they'll purchase his signature model at least)? That doesn't explain how you've never heard a bad LDG but it might play into the odds.
We've talked about wood, brass and nylon, I'd still like to know how much the LDG pickups contribute into the overall sound. Were they any different from stock Pro I or II pickups? How do those on 1st year LDG's measure up compared to later? |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 9 May 2016 8:43 am
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Jonathan; only noticeable difference in Shobud pickups to me; would be between a good condition one and one that has started or has loose windings already; and that happens after many years. So Shobud pickups were made and went on any and every model being built at the time.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 9 May 2016 12:36 pm
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FWIW, I owned that '73 LDG round front that ended up going to Dicky Overby (via Ricky 'the master' Davis and Randy Lindley.. LOL).
The PU on that guitar was a ShoBud w/tap, but it had gone weak and microphonic. I sent it to Jerry Wallace and told him 'make it sound like it did before'.. and he did, right down to the tapped sound. Hard to improve on the originals on an old ShoBud IMO, and Jerry nailed it.
Ricky, did you even know that story? I'm pretty sure I told you when we did that deal, but maybe not.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 9 May 2016 2:34 pm
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I hate to contribute... basically a few ideas built on a very small sample of experience. .
fwiw
The natural acoustic tone of the wood body and neck Shobud is thick and warm..not crisp...but remains articulate. There is no thin and piercing coming from the guitar itself. But....
AMPLIFIER AND PICKUP INTERACTION
Shobud pickups seem to have a very unique voicing where they sound hugely different depending whether played through a tube amp or a solid state amp. Tube amps have a significant mid dip in the 350 Hz range and Shobuds seem to have a mid bump there that nets out to a flattened or thinner lower midrange which would otherwise give them a thick warm rocking tone through a SS amp.
Further... the high end of the pickups is somewhat rolled off but has a pronounced presence bump that helps give these guitars a crisper and more articulate amplified tone than is otherwise natural to the guitar.
In a tube amp. . The upper frequencies get some hair..aka overtones well prior to when the low end starts mudding up with overdrive... thus a 2000 Hz bump might translate into a 4000 Hz harmonic the result being a bright somewhat more piercing tone if not dialed in with that in mind. Players can push the amp a bit too hard in a loud stage situation which can sometimes through the tone off.
Disclaimer...I developed these tonal theories as a first effort in trying to find the tone I enjoyed with my own SB and it is somewhat conjectural as I haven't visited the subject since.
As for the LDG specifically sounding amazing. ..my observation is that Shobud does not use metal rails but instead attaches the hardware to underside... thus with just the right amount of weight hanging under it... the body vibrations can feedback through the hardware giving some great harmonics... but there is the tipping point where more addition of hardware reduces vibration and transmits less vibration of a lower freq through more hardware...losing pretty much all the great tone. What I am getting at is that the Ldg less hardware per unit of cabinet than the D10s and Lloyd Green has less hardware than most which equals more resonance per unit of hardware. Equals tone.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 9 May 2016 6:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 9 May 2016 3:55 pm
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| Ricky Davis wrote: |
Hey Rich; I can give you a small insight. Firstly; the LDG was born to production in 1973. Lloyd has the 1st one and I have the 2nd one. Dickey also had one built the first year; as I am the one that set it up for him. Lloyd's is the only one with a longer scale; all the other Sho~bud's have 24" scale. Lloyd did not like the overtones he was getting and it turned out because of the length of string from rollers to tuners(mainly 4th;5th;6th strings) and I believe Duane came up with a slightly shorter Keyhead and therefore Lloyd's scale is now 24 1/2". But here is to me the main clincher in great sound. These first year LDG's followed the D-10 bodies and mechanics that was being built at Sho~bud in 1973 and they were the big body 3/4" maple; round front and Barrel tuners behind two hole pullers; single/single fingers but with a pad on where the back neck would be. And this happened ONLY the 1st year they were in production; because the next year 1974; sho~bud started using nylon tuners and fixing the rod to pullers and having two raises on the fingers that raised twice..yeee haaa. and also that was when the PRO II Custom started getting into production and the body style started changing and etc.....Actually I can give you 10 or so changes of Sho~buds about every year in production; but you don't have enough money to pay me for that info..ha...but really; To me those old big body round front shobud's that had the best sounding fingers in them that are the alum. single/single...and how they were mounted and the key heads then and rollers and etc.....are way out front in sound then any others....My opinion.
Ricky |
So then basically it is the older LDGs that have "that tone"? I am interested in the tone you got on your video "Not A Home". Very similar to what Lloyd got on "The White Light".
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 9 May 2016 4:02 pm
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Hey Bill; I'm not sure if I knew that at all....mainly because I landed on my memory from 15 feet in the air with a dirtbike strapped to me....ha.....
But I do know and certainly have used Jerry Wallace many many times to rewind/fix; and even put a coil tap winding in a shobud pickup. And it was me and him; that came up with the perfect winding ohms for his TrueTone narrow mount made for the shobud....as he sent a handfull of different windings that I tried over and over in the same Shobud; until I said: "That is it Jerry; that's the one!!!"
He is that good and he is that demanding on his work; so that's why that Dickey LDG you sold him sounded amazing.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 9 May 2016 4:12 pm
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Rich it is certainly a combination of some things for "That Tone"; that you are inquiring about. But yes a huge percentage is the pedal steel and I have of course played probably more different model and year shobuds than mostf(because refurbishing them for 20 years and hundreds of them so far); Also Including Lloyd Green's personal 1st LDG ever made; when I was at his house one time.
There are many many great sounding ones...but "That Tone" is certainly the round front LDG's from 1973. Also both me and lloyd still record/play through Fender Twin amps; with either a JBL D-130F or K-130. And I play through a old Shobud volume pedal with a 40 year old Allen Bradley type J 500K pot still in it..ha...
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 9 May 2016 5:37 pm
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Thanks Brint. 
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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