Modern vs Vintage Steels

Ryan Gimpert · From: Detroit, Michigan, USA

To those players who switched over to a "modern" steel (Jackson, Show Pro, Williams, etc), could you ever see yourself going back to a vintage steel like a Sho Bud or ZB?

I'd also like to hear from players who insist on playing vintage steels with old school mechanics for tonal/other reasons.

Rick Barnhart · From: Arizona, USA

I switched from a Carter D10 and a Williams SD10 to two Clinesmith console pedal steel guitars. The mechanics are old school cable and pulley, pedals and no knee levers. The set up is not complex like modern guitars, but I think they sound much better. No complaints about the other guitars, I just found what suits me more. These guitars are technically new, but are essentially brand new Bigsby reissues and scream with vintage vibe. They are also stunningly beautiful in natural laquered birdseye maple. Zero regrets!!

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Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe.

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

Newer guitars have more precise mechanics; nothing is more aggravating than a guitar that cannot be adjusted properly, or will not stay in tune. What good is tone if it's out of tune?
For me, modern all the way. Love my LeGrande & HWP D-10s.
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A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

A properly adjusted old steel will stay in tune just fine, and will sound wonderful. My '74 Shobud is awesome , and so is my '63 Fingertip.
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Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

I play a Jackson Blackjack Custom, but if there was any Sho-Bud steel I'd like to play, it'd be the Super Pro. I'm a huge fan of the Super Pro's looks and sound. I started out on an Emmons GS-10 with three pedals, one knee, then switched to a GFI Ultra D-10 with eight pedals, five knees, and in 2010, I got the Jackson and it's my main guitar. What I love about the Jackson is not only its' looks, but also its' sound-it's very similar to a Sho-Bud and, of course it's got great tone and playability, smooth pedals. The sound of my Jackson is awesome through my Peavey Nashville 112. To me, the Jackson gives me the steel sound I've been looking for for sixteen years, which is the classic steel sound and the clear tone.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

old Steels, if set up properly stay in tune just as well as any new Steel. The differences between OLD era and NEW era are in Pedal and Knee lever action which are based on changer pulls ( how many up/down) and the # of bell crank positions. Staying in tune is not and has never been an issue. Proper maintenance and set-up to ANY era Steel is key.

There are plenty of us who are playing brand new Steels out of tune ! Smile

While at the same time there are plenty of us playing OLDER Steels in tune...

My newest Steel is a 95, ( thats 21 years old now) the oldest is a 78. In the middle is an 81.

Probably the biggest reason older Steels may be having difficulty is they are being passed from player to player over it's lifetime while proper maintenance, no make that required maintenance ,has never been performed.

Don't blame the Instrument. Even 50 year old Telecasters need a fret job but that doesn't make them less an instrument than a brand new one.

oh and this, adding new oil on top of old oil is not proper maintenance.
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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I have an 83 Emmons Push-Pull and a 2012 Williams Series 700 keyless. I find the Emmons tunes up more precisely. Once I have a pedal or lever properly tuned it seems to hold the tuning for a very long time. With the Williams it seems that sometimes I have to keep re-tuning pedals and levers. It seems to drift. I've had other all pull guitars that also seemed to do that. The push-pull changer of the Emmons is really very stable.

Tone-wise, the Emmons is my choice, but the Williams sounds very good and is certainly a professional sounding steel. Plus it's much lighter.

It's a lot easier to experiment with my copedent on the Williams. The Emmons can be a real pain if I want to try something new. And some of the more exotic pedal/lever changes do not work well on the push-pull.

I haven't come close to trying all the different brands of steels that are available, but I'm very glad to have bought a PP Emmons about 7 or 8 years ago.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

comparing a Push Pull to an ALL Pull for ease of setup is not apples to apples. Comparing a Legrande to any other ALL Pull is indeed Apples to Apples.

So I am assuming that some feel a Legrande cannot stay in tune ? Really ?

By the way, Push Pulls if set-up properly and have been maintained have zero stay in tune issues. Now there may be many folks who don't like the way they tune or have not figured it out, but thats a different issue.

Old Steel Guitars require proper maintenance , as do many newer ones . IF someone makes a purchase of say an older Sho Bud and the underside is filthy, the rods discolored , caked with grit, the cross shafts are not clean etc, the changer is gunked with oil on top of oil and it doesn't stay in tune...

what a shock ! Exclamation

_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

This comparison is akin to cars. Do you want to drive a new car or a classic?
A new car depreciates but a classic just keeps going up in value, the same as guitars. Very Happy

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have gone back to decrepit old pedal steels,,,, The newer stuff is great, but I simply like the sound and feel of old wood,,, My modern guitars left me cold except for my first Carter,,, that steel was super stable and reliable.. Stayed perfectly in tune for months on end, and had a great old school sound, like an old Bud.. Other than that Carter I have found most modern steels "sterile" in sound and feel.. Can't say why, but I have owned my last modern steel... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Steve Spitz · From: New Orleans, LA, USA

How old is old ?

A new steel can have great tone, and an old steel can play well, assuming no excessive wear on critical parts, and proper set up/adjustment.

A modern steel can be poorly set up, and not play well.

I like both, old and new, but prefer mostly newer guitars for most jobs.

Old is no guarantee of any "mojo" . They made mediocre guitars back in the day as well.
You've got to know what you're doing when shopping for vintage steels. I'd love to have a wrap around, a fingertip, or a Bigsby, including a set up job by someone top notch.

Some modern steels have a cool vintage vibe. Show Pro, some Jacksons, Fulawka and Clinesmith come to mind. Best of both worlds ?

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

Of all things...I bought a 70's Miller Custom. It's pull-release. Bob Simmons set it up with several more pulls than you'd expect on an old Miller.

Without any doubt this is the best sounding, and playing, steel I've owned. Ten minutes ago I played a few tunes and am so happy I bought it. The guy that sold it (here on the Forum) saw virtually no interest in it, which is not surprising, because of it's name recognition. It is a great guitar...more than I need or deserve for sure!

I've had 4 Carters, all of them good guitars. My last one was a mid-90's U-12 which was the best. I also have a '66 Shobud. I wanted something "like" a Shobud Permanent. This was way cheaper!

Moral of the story: Setup by a person who REALLY understands the instrument he or she is working on.
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

For the last couple of years I've been playing my Infinity D-10, simply because of its smooth operation, incredibly in-tune pitch return, precision everything and great tone.

But I do have two old Emmons D-10s and two Emmons S-10s (one in C6, the other in E9), and I have played the single necks several times in recent months. They are wonderfully easy playing PPs, but the Infinity has it over the Emmonses in operation.

For the last few gigs, however, I've been taking my '65 wraparound, a guitar I've played very infrequently in the last few years. I've been amazed at how flawlessly that old Emmons feels and responds. Pedal action easy as any modern guitar, though with the feel of a PP. And tuning stability is constant and true. It's been maintained, cleaned, lubed and pampered for years, and it shows its appreciation.

The work on that guitar was performed by Mike Cass and Bobby Bowman, so it's no surprise that it gives back everything that is asked of it.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I do like modern guitars and have owned and played plenty of them. But it really comes down to sound and feel for me and old Emmons guitars ring true. I have a 64 wraparound that shimmers and growls like nothing else. And a 67 that can go from a dreaded beast clawing its way though a muddy mess on a loud stage to the sweetest pearl you ever heard just by changing my mind.

The modern guitar I own is a Clinesmith console D10 non pedal with metal necks. Its got a bunch more of whatever it is that makes the wraparound special.

I have just as much trouble playing vintage instruments in tune as I do modern ones.
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Bob

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Bob, which 1964 Emmons do you have?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Number 13
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Bob

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

My experience here is limited. Aside from the Maverick I borrowed for a little while when I got started, I always, and only, played the same 2 MSA classics from 1979 till 2005; The green maple/lacquer one shown in my avatar, which was made in â€™77 or â€™78, and a white mica/dieboard one from a few years earlier. Those 2 sounded different from each other. They had different pickups, which must have been a factor in that. But even unplugged, the 2 guitars sounded different. (I sometimes practice unplugged when my wife is asleep.) The green guitar had a deeper and richer tone, while the white was brighter.

At one time I had both the 2 classics and my first millennium and compared the tones of the guitars, but amplified and unplugged. The Millenniums donâ€™t have the warmth of the wood guitars. But just as they have more precise mechanics, the sound is also more precise. They have better string separation, and each note is clearer. The clarity and precision of the individual notes can almost be described as military. They sound different, but not in a bad way.

The 2 classics had double raise double lower changers. Both guitars had 3 of Tom Bradshawâ€™s conversion inserts to change strings 5 and 6 to 3 raises and 1 lower, and string 11 to 1 raise and 3 lowers. Additionally, Jim Palenscar installed split screws on string 5 on both guitars.

However, the Millies have 4 raises and 3 lowers and split screws on every string. This is in addition to the modular pickups, the adjustable heights of the pedals etc. In my opinion, even though the mechanics of the classics worked well, the Millies were far superior.

My vote is for a modern guitar with better mechanics.

And for people who want that vintage Sho-Bud tone, you can buy a Jackson or Sho-Pro, and for you ZB lovers, you can get one of Kevin Hattonâ€™s guitars. These guitars will give you the sound you want, with todayâ€™s better mechanics.
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I'm a vintage guy myself, especially push pulls. They stay in tune better, have better pedal feel and sound better than any all pull modern guitar that I have owned or played. I like the older Sho~Bud tone too like the Pro II's and III's and most of those play really well. The word Vintage really means nothing to me as I go strictly by how a guitar feels and sounds to me. I have an 82 SKH that is awesome. Guess you could call that vintage. There are several brands of modern guitars I haven't played but still don't think they will win out over the vintage guitars I like and mentioned above.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

my 82 zum is my 'modern' guitar. early one's had good solid wood frames and no extra aluminum rails and structure.

otherwise i think the best all around vintage steels are push pulls fom 67 to 75 or so.
cuttail aluminum necks and bolt on wood necks....
all good.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

tell it i'm sorry, tony. i hate to make any steel sad!

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

That's the one !
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Bob

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

This '63 looks new, and sounds awesome. Just waiting for some more knee levers from James! Plays great! I admit new guitars play easier, but you get used to these oldies, and the difference is no big deal.

_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

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