Another "D" In The Tuning Question On C-6th

Jimmie Misenheimer · From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

I know that this issue has been addressed a number of times, but I've got a question that I've not yet seen. I know that I'm not the first to think of this, (or anything else for that matter), and if this has been answered already I'm sorry. Like others, I have always been interested in a "D" note between my E and C, on the back neck. I've tried some things, but have never been happy with either raising or lowering to D, as I think that the answer is to have it on there open. Also, I don't want to give the low C up. My question is: Does anybody know of anyone who has given up the 1st string, be it G or D, and started with their E in the #1 slot to make room for an open D in the #7 position? Of course you could peddle the D note in from strings 1 or 2, but I don't know if losing a D on top is worth gaining a D in the middle. For me, this idea came from years of doubling on "lapsteel", E-6th tuning, with an A-flat in the first position. Maybe it's an age thing, but I'm not nearly as ready as I was for years to tear a guitar half way down just to see what this or that change would be like. Anyone have any ideas???

Jimmie

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Jimmie,

Back in "pre-pedal" days a lot of steel guitarists used C6 with the third tone of the scale (E note) on top. Joaquin Murphey and Jerry Byrd are two examples. I used it for years myself after Joaquin showed it to me in 1949. It is still one of my fvorite tunings for single-string improvisation. The steelers who wanted the fifth tone of the scale on top (such as Noel Boggs) usually stuck with the A6 tuning, which is equivallent to the modern C6 with G on top -- but three frets lower.

------------------

Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jimmie,

I know of no one who has started with an E note to gain a D noted between our 6th and 7th strings on our C6 neck. But I do know that Buddy has been, for some time now, using a D down there. If I am not mistaken Jimmy Crawford built him a PSG 12 string C6 neck and I believe he has both D's in the tuning.

I do not know the complete copedent. Maybe Ernie Renn or other BE officiando could post it; or even Buddy himself, if he reads this post.

carl

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Jimmie...Interesting concept!?!? Yes the middle D note is a very cool idea for a number of reasons. I've always maintained that it would make sight reading easier amoung all the great harmonic possibilities.

I have a D12 with 7(out of 10) floor pedals working the C neck. I personally raise my middle C to D on the 4rth pedal, but I've always wanted to try a dedicated string. If it wasnt such an ordeal to make a big change like that on my round cross shaft Dekley, I'd probably try it.
I also raise my high C to C#-D (with a half stop). Even though I have the high D (and G too)on there also, I could see where the dedicated high D might be unnecesary (I speak for myself only here folks

)With the C-D on a KL. That way you can get most of the chords that you cant get with ped7, and you just have to find other ways to play fast little triplet figures etc. that everybody likes the dedicated D for.

I say, give it a try and report back to us! Maybe we'll be calling this variation the "Jimmie Misenheimer" set up someday.

BTW, that version of Goodbye Porkie Hat I posted on the forum last year had the middle and high D on the KL all over it.

Good luck...Rick

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Slightly unrelated, but I'm excited about trying a new Pedal 4 set-up - Mike Smith has this on his guitar amd was kind enough to share the information here on the Forum recently.

He raises the 4th (A to B) in common with the traditional function of this pedal, but, instead of raising the lower 'A' string as well, he raises his low 'C' to 'D'. I've thought this through, and I'm going to try it. I, too, miss the 'D' in the middle, but I'd hate to lose the old P4 for phrases in the '2 below zero' position - I think this is going to work!

RR
PS: I'm also going to lose my 'A's to 'Ab's on my RKL, and substitute the 'reverse' pedal 6 - 2nd down to Eb, 6th up to F, with the addition on the 10th going up to a D.

Larry Bell - are you reading this? I've just outlined our project for when you next come over and visit!

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Roger...I have a pedal that lowers my low F to a D. It's great to have the low D and not have it be a dom7 like the 5th pedal! It'll work good with your reverse 6 pedal too. I kinda have that too. I raise both E's to F and it works great with a low D as the root!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

How bout the following for some "D's"



                        LKL


   4  5  6  7  8  9  LKL   LKV LKR  RKL RKR





D              Eb


G        F#       


E                 D*                 F   F


C  D        D               B*  C#


A     Bb    B         Ab*  


G        F#              F  


E                        D*          Eb  F


C  D           C                C#


A     Bb


F        F#    E* G


C        D     A         D





*=Splits

If I ever bought another double neck (not likely), it would be a D-11 and the bottom neck would be as the above. More D's than Carter has pills (no offense John Fabian

)

I'm serious.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 August 2004 at 12:46 PM.]

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I like it Carl! I think I'd have to reverse the LKV and the LKR.....(I think????)

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

Curly Chalker's 10 string C6th had the E note as his first string in Winnie Winston's book. His 10th string was tuned to A (the std? C6 drops string 10 to this on a pedal)
I'm tempted to experiment with that idea, but I guess I'm too lazy to change my steel set up to that.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Good point Rick,

And I did consider it. The reason I did not go that way is too fold:

1. I want to use LKV with LKL2 AND with LKL.

2. Given the choice I have always felt a vertical lever should be just as easy to engage as possible because of fatigue.

But hey who knows, It might work out better. It certainly is a viable thought.

Thanks for pointing it out dear friend,

carl

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Copying from Paul Franklin's setup here: http://b0b.com/tunings/pf_c6.htm I have an extra pedal on my C6 that raises 7, 8, and 9 to get the middle D without losing the surrounding strings. It raises 7 C-D, 8 A-C, and 9 F-A. Buddy Emmons in 1977 also raised 10 C-F, but said it was too stiff. You can read about and hear a cool lick with it here: http://www.buddyemmons.com/shades.htm

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That sounds great, too! Would those three 'pulls' be too much for a knee-lever, does anyone think?

RR

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I have them on a floor pedal and it's about as stiff as the stock 5th pedal. I set them so the travel is about the same length as the other pedals. On a knee lever, they shouldn't be too bad, if you set them up for a long stroke.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sorry, Rog
I've been out of town
Yes, looks very do-able. I've never worked on a LeGrande before, but one all-pull guitar is pretty much like another.

You should have two pull rods for each, so all that needs to be done is 're-routing' them to raise or lower different strings.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Hey Larry! How are you?

We're looking forward to seeing you both Monday evening at our little celebration (see 'Our Extended Family')....

Now I'm pondering the options - raise just the low C, or do the C, A and F pull; they're two very different choices, so I need to decide!

I wonder - do you think Susie will mind if we work on the steel on our wedding day with all the guests in the same room? I'm new to this married life!

Roger

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Carl Dixon-That is a great very nice C6 setup you are showing on your post. Lots of things to make music with.It looks like a lot of guys agree....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Thank you Al,

On that hypothetical D-11, the following would be the E9th neck:






                  LKL            RKL


   O  A  B  C   LKL   LKV LKR  RKL   RKR





F#                                 G#


D#                  D              E  C#


G#       A


E           F#   F         Eb


B  A  C#    C#         Bb 


G#       A                      F#


F#                                 G#


E           F#   F         Eb


B  A  C#            D  Bb             C#


G#       A          B           F#


E                F         Eb

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 07 August 2004 at 08:58 PM.]

Gary Walker · From: Morro Bay, CA

Doug, on my D-11 Mullen, the 11th string is a low A and does not move with any lever or pedal. I got the idea from Chalker and it opens up some nice minor 7ths among other things. My only difference from Curly's low strings, I still have the standard C on the 10th instead of his D.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Gary-That D on the 10th string that Curly used is very important root to the 7th pedal maj7 or 13th. Reece used it on his Bb6 tuning too, but with 12 strings, he could get it all.....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Have you tried Terry Crisps'tuning? Drop the low C 10th string, and add a D between the middle C and E.
Not sure Terry came up with this way of tuning.Maybe Buddy did, but Terry has used it for over 20 years.Just a thought...bb

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I got rid of the low C to get a middle D when I had a D-10. No need to do without anything on my new D-12!

	LKL  LKV  LKR    P1   P2   P3   P4   P5     RKL  RKR


1  G                                         +G#


2  E              -Eb              +F


3  D


4  C    +C#                             +D          -B


5  A         -Ab         +B             +B               +Bb


6  G                          -F#


7  E              +F               -Eb


8  D    -C#


9  C                                         +C#


10 A         -Ab         +B                              +Bb


11 F                          +F#            -E


12 C                          +D             -A

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I have the same thing on my "Mooney" Universal. I dropped the low B a while back and put a C# string in position 9 so with the E's lowered it's the same thing. It goes like this:



.. <  ^  >  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  <   >


F#


C# D#    D


G#          G     A


E                    F#           F  D#


B     A#       C#       C#


G#                A     A#


F#          G#             F


E                                 F  D#


C#       D                    C


B  A#          C#             A#


G#                   A          


E                          F  D#

I love having that note in the middle of the tuning as it's great for single string work and chording. I think the next change I add will be lowering the 12th string E to C# on my RKL....Have a good 'un, JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 09 August 2004 at 05:28 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jerry,

Look at pedal 4 in your chart. Is it correct? If yes, how do you use that pedal?

Thanks,

A Better Way

carl

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Carl,
Yes it is correct. I don't pull the 5th string with the 4th as that's the way my hero Ralph Mooney does it so it's good enough for me. If I need that note it's on string two. I like the sound of the E being pulled to F# without the B coming up with it. Also I pull my 11th string G# to A on that pedal. I can get another low register A major 7th and other uses for single string things. Sometimes on fast things in the key of A, I just hold that pedal down and play on the open strings for some guitar type things. I'm primarily a lead guitarist and still seem to think in that mode. I've been trying to learn to play most things that I play on guitar on steel and it's easier the way I'm tuned. Have a good 'un, JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Thanks Jerry,

I perceived you would say yes. Now my next question.

Ralph does have a lone E to F# pedal on his PSG. And he has had this for a very long time. But locates this pedal to the extreme right and comes off his vol pedal to engage it. And often (if my understanding is correct) when he does it, A and/or B is down.

Do you do this?

Thanks for responding dear friend,

carl

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic