Half stops

James Lutz · From: Wisconsin

Perhaps this has been covered before, or is dumb, but this new guy is wondering something.

I know most machines have a half stop on the second string E9. It works good, and is that because it's a lower?

My actual question is - why won't a half stop work on the first string raise from F# to G to G#? Is it because it's a raise, or is it of no value?

The reason I ask is because back when, the first string was raised to G for the nice flat 7 with pedals down, then somewhere along the way it went up to G# for the unison sound. I'd think both sounds would be good to have. Or do good players just know how to "feel" the G?

Curiously,
Jim

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Forget the destination, enjoy the trip.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Why do you say it doesn't work on the high F# to G to G#? It works fine here.

James Lutz · From: Wisconsin

Well, I was wondering mostly because on my BMI I can't get it to pull up the whole step well. So I don't have the pull on my guitar, but thought it would be swell to have it, and wondered if it was indeed possible. Another reason is, looking at most copedants out there, most folks have the first string being raised to G#, with no annotation that there is a half stop at G, but the second string lower is usually marked with both notes - denoting the half stop.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

There are players who do have a half-stop on the first string F# to G# pull.

I am going to install a lever that will pull 1 and 7 a whole tone and 2 a half a tone. I am going to try and time the pulls so that I will feel the 2nd string start to pull as 1 and 7 gets to G.

Not sure it will work. But I am going to try it anyway. If it doesn't then I will just get the G's by "half-pedaling" so to speak

carl

James Lutz · From: Wisconsin

Thanks for the info! I was wondering if the half stop feel was because it's a lower, and wouldn't feel as well on a raise. Also, I'm going to try and find a good pull rod to make my first string pull up a whole step. It almost makes it now, but I think the L bend in the rod that lets it fit into the bell crank is getting soft, or slightly cracked. It's a matter of time before it snaps, I think.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Jims post:
quote:
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I am going to try and time the pulls so that I will feel the 2nd string start to pull as 1 and 7 gets to G.
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Carl, I have that same setup on my Dekley, Fessenden, and Emmons P/P, all without half-tone tuners. They're not perfect, but most of the time the G note doesn't have to be.

I've been doing that for 10 years and it hasn't hurt my playing.Well maybe a little.

No seriously it's not a firm half stop but you get used to it.........bbb

Burton Lee · From: Denton, Texas, USA

This is just a shot in the dark, and I'm sure there's a reason why you cant do it, but can you put the superfluous pull (to give you the half-stop feel) on the c-neck if the real pulls are happening on the e-neck?

Burton Lee
Denton, Tx

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Yep, you sure could, although the 2nd string has enough resistance for me to feel.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jim,

In most cases, a true half stop, does not matter whether it works on a lower or raise. The following is why. All a half stop* is; is a nother rod with a spring and adjustable stop. So it can be installed on a raise as well as a lower.

Thanks Bobby for telling me that. That is encouraging.

*Emmons' came up with a unique half-stop that would indeed work ONLY on a lower. They took advantage of a quirk in their P/P fingering. When they installed it on my guitar, I noticed it prevented that string from ever being raised.

When I enquired, they responded, "there will never be a reason to raise the 2nd string!"

And "God did not make little green apples"

carl

Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

Jim,

I have a half stop raise on my 2nd string and it has worked fine for many years. I tune the 2nd string to C# and raise it to D (half stop) and finally to an Eb. I have used this change on Sho Bud, Emmons, and Zum guitars without a problem. It does take a bit of messing around to get it balanced correctly, especially if you are pulling more than the one string.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

For years I've depended on the split-tune on my 5th and 10th strings - raising to C# then lowering back a half-step on my RKL (Bs to Bb).

On reading that this option wasn't easily available on some guitars (Emmons p/p was quoted), I decided to try and 'half-pedal' with my foot rather than engage the pedal and knee-lever. At first it was tricky, but I'm amazed at how quickly I've acheived accuracy with it.

It's actually been of practical use to me, as the split-tune function on my LeGrande lll doesn't stay 'in tune' - I just tried it this morning, and it's gone a little awry. I don't know why this is - I can get it in tune by following the 'split-tune' directions, but it doesn't stay there for long.

The same is true of my LKV (G# to F# - split with pedal 2) - the 'split' keeps slipping out of tune, so I no longer use that pull. I have a second LKL that raises 1 and 2, as well as raising my 7th a whole-step - once again, I've taught myself to 'half-raise' that KL and get the G note on the 7th string instead of the 6th. It works well for me, and I've learned a technique in the process!

Now, I still find that B to Bb lower vital to my playing, but it would no longer be an issue if I couldn't get a split with my 'A' pedal.

Maybe now I CAN get an Emmons push/pull....

Roger Rettig

PS: I know it can be done on a p/p, but my understanding is that it results ina questionable pedal-action.

PPS: I bet there's some guys rolling their eyes, having half-pedalled all their lives....."

"

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Roger,

This is interesting to me. My LeGrande, Sierra and now Excel all had (have) splitting capabilities. And once set, I have never known it to slip out of adjustment. What is even more interesting is on the LeGrande, the splitting feature is the most positive of my 3 guitars.

Yet you are having problems with it not staying in tune. I would be hard pressed even to conjecture a reason why this is happening to you. Knowing how the LeGrande splits, I am frustrated mentally as to why you are having this problem. I wish I was near you, cuz I would ask permission to see it.

I will give you an example, I split (as you do) my G# to F# on string 6 with the B pedal. I use this split all the time and on every song I play. It is one of my most used changes. And the only problem I have ever had with it is, trying to find that G note I like as a compromise between a pretty E minor chord versus a "tensioned" A7th chord.

As you may be aware, when a person tunes JI, they are not the same notes. But once I find that "sweet" compromise spot for the G note, I never ever have to touch the split. And again I use it all the time. Really.

Have you tried changing the nylon tuner? Could it be slipping out of adjustment as you engage the split?

I hope you find the cause, because splitting is becoming more and more an intregal part of many players' "bag of tricks".

Incidently, the Emmon's type splitting will not work for the B to Bb and A pedal split, IF one tunes pure JI. The reason is the split leaves the Bb too sharp. And Emmons' typing splitting only works if it ends up too flat. However, thanks to a fellow forumite's suggestion, this can be gotten around, by using an additional lower rod splitter in lieu of the Emmons' type splitting screw.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

richard burton · From: Britain

Carl,
I've noticed that the sequence of pedal and lever actuation affect the pitch of the split note, ie if the split is tuned with the pedal pressed first and then the lever moved, a slightly different note results if the lever is moved before the pedal is pressed.
Jim, perhaps you can get that full-tone raise and a half-tone 'feel' by utilising the lowering aspect of the BMI (assuming it's an all-pull steel, and that you don't lower the first string). If the lever was held on a spring, the finger could be held in the lowering position, and tuned to F#.
When the lever is actuated, using two rods (one to the raise, one to the lower) attached to the lever crossrod, the finger would raise, first to G, and then to G#.
R B.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Carl

Thanks for posting your thoughts on my LeGrande problem.

I think I was reflecting that, while 'splitting' is a luxury we're all taking advatage of these days, it's been a challenge to do it the 'old way', and I've enjoyed overcoming the problem in the way that I have.

My only E9 'splits' are Pedal C/Bs to Bb, and LKV(G# to F#)/Pedal B (I have the 'Day' set-up). I find I can satisfactorily half-pedal the 5th and 10th strings, so there's nothing lost there, and I can get that 'G' on the 7th instead of the 6th string, with the advantage of having the 'A' note still available on the 6th, by half-pedalling my LKL2. What other splits do I need?

By the way, my 2nd string is set up to lower to D/C# like most, but I usually wind it back so I get the 'D' note only - this is because that note is a vital one for me, especially with pedals down, and half-pedalling on my RIGHT knee is a bit too much of a challenge while dealing with the volume pedal....a really good half-stop 'feel' would be useful there, I confess!

In answer to your questions, I haven't checked or changed the nylon tuners - if I have any problem with my Emmons, it's the fact that those tuners require enormous torque with my 'George L' wrench to even move them! I can't imagine they're moving on their own!

I must stress (if it isn't already obvious!) that I'm definitely NOT a tinkerer, let alone any kind of engineer - PSG mechanics are a closed book to me, and I'm only capable of the most rudimentary adjustments! Thankfully, I have a new pal here in the area (Larry Bell) who's agreed to come and help me change a couple of 'pulls' in the near future - I have some changes in mind on my C neck.....

Next time I drive north to TN, maybe I could call on you! I'd be delighted to meet you, and very pleased if you'd cast an informed eye over my guitar - what's eluding me may well be obvious to you!

Thanks again for your helpful thoughts....

Best,

Roger

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Roger,

Please do, I would consider it an honor.

You may be interested in the following. On my 12 string universal, I have 8 split setups that I use all the time. I never dreamed how handy they would be.

One of them is so unique that had it not been for a last minute whim just before I told Mitsuo the setup I wanted, I may have never uncovered the beauty of the change and split capability of that whim.

Funny how sometimes fate plays a tremendous role in our future. Come to think about it, it is not fate. It is HIM leading and guiding us because HE knows and we don't. Praise his holy name,

carl

Kenny Dail · From: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.

Jim you said that you present pull lacked enough pull to pull it up the G#. Most people us a .012 gauge string here. If you are using a .012, replace it with a .010. Then tune it up and see what you have.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 05 August 2004 at 03:17 PM.]

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